turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2001
Amen.....I encounter the same and always run one.
What about oil pressure (109).
- Thread starter Schmith
- Start date
RED LS1
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2001
^^ My heads are fresh out of the machine shop with 500 miles. They had full valve job and all new seals and whatever else they do to heads at the machine shop, lol.
That doesn't mean that there's not a problem with them but it's unlikely. I figured the smoke is from excesive oil passing through the turbo or something. It actually hasn't puffed anything in a while so i'm hoping the problem clears up. The oil pressure is still to high for my liking at 42 psi hot idle and 65-70 hot full throttle. The cold numbers are very high and thatd when I would see the smoke..
That doesn't mean that there's not a problem with them but it's unlikely. I figured the smoke is from excesive oil passing through the turbo or something. It actually hasn't puffed anything in a while so i'm hoping the problem clears up. The oil pressure is still to high for my liking at 42 psi hot idle and 65-70 hot full throttle. The cold numbers are very high and thatd when I would see the smoke..
RED LS1
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2001
^^^ Come to think of it I wonder if it's from the rings being not completely seated???? I rebuilt the motor but didn't do any cylinder honing or anything. Just hot tanked everything and put new bearings and threw it back together. I took it out on a ring seating mission but now it's 5-600 miles later and a lot of 20 psi beatings. Maybe there seated ral good now and no more puff puff giiiive....
aluminum has twice the expansion rate of cast iron. The critical clearances (Gear to gear, Gear to Pocket and Gear end play) all change (expand) when the pump reaches operating temp because the aluminum housing grows twice as fast as the cast iron gears. A new aluminum cover is not the answer in my opinion. [/quote]
I'm talking about the design of the plate not the material. It does nothing to increase the efficiency of the pump. the Kenne-Bell Plate increases the pumps efficiency. If the cast iron plate was the same design as the Kenne-Bell plate it would be an improvement to the pump.
Explain how a cast iron plate does anything to decrease the expansion rate of the pump body,thereby giving you a more desirable gear to gear,gear to pocket,and gear end play.
I never said a new aluminum cover was better or worse or recommended over a cast iron plate. I said using a cast iron plate makes the pump no more efficient than the stock cover.
As far as shrapnel getting in the pump goes,it still does with a cast iron plat and still messes with the aluminum surfaces that remain. Keep the motor clean.
Measure your idle and WOT oil pressure with the plate and then take the plate off and measure again. No difference will be noted.
turbodave231
Moderator
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
All metal changes its shape as it heats up. Although I've never measured an oil pump cover hot, but I'll bet the aluminum cover distorts more (out of flat) when hot versus a cast iron part. Cast iron is very stable in the pump operating temperature range.
Cast iron also has a high level of graphite in the metal which is good from a lubrication standpoint. I've used the plates on all my own engine builds and disassembled the engine later for inspection and refesh. I have found little or no wear on the plate and gears. I always end up reusing the plate. I can never reuse an aluminum cover without sanding or polishing the wear out of the surface. In my opinion, from a durability standpoint alone the plate makes sense.
Cast iron also has a high level of graphite in the metal which is good from a lubrication standpoint. I've used the plates on all my own engine builds and disassembled the engine later for inspection and refesh. I have found little or no wear on the plate and gears. I always end up reusing the plate. I can never reuse an aluminum cover without sanding or polishing the wear out of the surface. In my opinion, from a durability standpoint alone the plate makes sense.
Please don't be insulting. We can disagree and still keep the conversation friendly. Everyone here is entitled to an opinion. Any smart engine builder tries to keep everything 100% clean. You sound smart enough to know that parts fail/wear and debris ends up in the oil pan. The oil pump is a trash pump. It picks up anything and everything in the pan.
I,m sure aluminum distorts and I know the covers get scratched. I'll say it again the distortion and scratches mean nothing in the big picture. If you would measure the oil pressure before taking a pump apart and again after installing an iron plate,you would find no significant difference. When I say no significant difference I mean neither one would provide increased protection for the bearings over the other. I can say this because I've done it. You can't argue with me because you've never done this to disprove what I'm saying.You always switch to the plate.
I'll go even further and show you are correct about the oil pump being a trash pump.
When I wiped my last flat tappet cam I wiped almost all of the lobes and I still talked myself into believing that I had saved my bearings from all that shrapnel. Can you imagine the amount of shrapnel that must have been?
A year after the incident I decided to remove the motor to throw some bearings in it. When the motor was on the engine stand I tried to move the balancer up and down to see if there was notable play. I was amazed at how far up and down it moved because I had good oil pressure. The bearings and crank where junk and I'm sure you can imagine the debris in the pump cavity. I put a new cover on with my freshly sanded booster plate and some new gears. The stock( un turned ) crank I bought had between .0007"-.001" bearing clearance. The oil pressure (I still beat on it weekly) is the same as it was before I replaced the crank and bearings. This pathetic Buick oiling system just will not let me down. I've never spun a bearing and was beating up on the motor up till the day I removed it for the crank swap.
I've never used anything thicker than 10W-30.
turbodave231
Moderator
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
OK,
It is apparent that we will never agree on the use of thrust plates.....and that is OK.
This isn't my first time inside a Buick V6. My first new car in 1985 was a 1985 Limited Turbo Regal. I've owned over a dozen turbo cars since then and more Buick engines than I can remember. I've built front covers with and without thrust plates and with different bearing clearances. I have found what works for me. I prefer thrust plates because I believe they provide some benefit. Based on your personal experience, you disagree, and that my friend is OK.
Dave
It is apparent that we will never agree on the use of thrust plates.....and that is OK.
This isn't my first time inside a Buick V6. My first new car in 1985 was a 1985 Limited Turbo Regal. I've owned over a dozen turbo cars since then and more Buick engines than I can remember. I've built front covers with and without thrust plates and with different bearing clearances. I have found what works for me. I prefer thrust plates because I believe they provide some benefit. Based on your personal experience, you disagree, and that my friend is OK.
Dave
I agree with what your doing and know it will work for anyone who does it. Anyone who does it will be fine. If you measure oil pressure before and after the cast iron plate you'll see no difference. Maybe you'll have an opportunity to do this in the future. It's the only way you'll know for sure.
My mechanic installed a new TA front cover, new Melling pump gears and thinnest gasket that came with the kit. Oil pressure is 10 -15 at hot idle, 75 at cold start up. In town, pressure is around 20 and shoots up to 50 when I give it gas. Problem is on the hwy, pressure is just under 30 (at about 2k rpm). If I give it gas and about 15 psi boost, pressure shoots righ up to around 50-60. Pressure didn't shoot up like that with the old cover. Does it sound like I have a problem? Oil pressure was 40-45 on the hwy with old cover. I also installed a stiffer spring (stiffer than the yellow one) with no change in oil pressure. I'm using 10W-30 with ZDDPlus and a WIX filter. Coolant temp is around 185. Gauge is a VDO. Do you think we should try a mechanical gauge and see if there is any difference? Thanks.
i dont see a problem, if you want try a heavier weight oil and see if it helps. My oil pressure at cruise is about 40psi wit 20w-50 but im at about 2800 rpm at 70mph
I'm concerned since the pressure dropped on the hwy after the front cover surgery. I did some reading in another thread and someone suggested the oil pick up in the pan could be clogged. What do you guys think of that?
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
The spring only changes bypass pressure. It does nothing for run pressure.
As long as oil pressure shoots up on acceleration you are ok. Is the motor stock? Rebuilt?
RL
As long as oil pressure shoots up on acceleration you are ok. Is the motor stock? Rebuilt?
RL
C
coach
Guest
Just in case you guys didn't know...I make NEW BOOSTER PLATES...out of stainless steel. Look in the fabrication section and under Coach's Booster Plates. They do work, and work well, when set-up correctly. They don't wear either.
Coach
Coach
The motor was rebuilt. I have around 40-50k miles on the rebuild. Oil definitely shoots up on acceleration, even better than it did before the timing cover replacement. I drained the Mobile 1 synthetic 10W-30 and put in Penzoil 10W-40. No difference. Mechanic dropped the pan and said there was no debris in the oil pick up. I think he wants to remeasure everything. Am I chasing a problem that doesn't exist? He says I should use 20W-50 oil like Kidglok said a couple posts up. He knows it robs a few horsepower but he uses it in his truck and says it will give me better pressure. Opinions on this?
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
A good rebuild tends to have more oil clearance on the bearings. The added clearance requires more oil to maintain pressure. This is most noticeable at idle. The oil weight effects pressure as well. Lighter oil weight will run lower pressure. Specially at idle. The clearances were tight from the factory hence the use of lighter oil. My motor was built by a guy who builds race motors and it real particular about bearing clearances. I run vr1 20-50.
Did you get a build sheet with the motor. Are the clearances documented? Did they tell you what weight oil you should use?
RL
Did you get a build sheet with the motor. Are the clearances documented? Did they tell you what weight oil you should use?
RL
I don't have the clearance info. Just concerned due to recent changes after new timing cover install. I've been out of town and just got back. Will talk with mechanic tomorrow and find out what he thinks.
Do not ever use Penzoil, maybe for a 500 mile break in but for nothing else. Mobile 1, royal purple or whatever but Never after break in use Penzoil even then Mobile clean 5000 but don't go 5000 miles. Turbo life loves synthetic. but different setups do get diffrent results so if it works for you don't fix it. I'm not trying to down People that use Penzoil the worlds big enough for us all for now lol . This is a lil off topic but whats everybody running in there 200r4(type of trans fuild) and, motor oil with what pump setup and, what pressure (motor oil) do you see hot & cold, ETs? thanks
