What about oil pressure (109).

[Schmith]

Whats the best way to go about oiling for the 109 block I have it out right now so whats the best way to go? I see some are using

Federal Mogul high volume oil pump kit - part No. 224-518-V... $44.86​

Federal Mogul oil pump thrust plate - part No. 224-518TP... $14.69​

Read more: http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/tech/0207gmhtp_buick_turbo_v6_engine_build_bottom_end/index.html#ixzz1nTDgtzsX ​

Is this the way to go?

 

[Jerryl]

Whats the best way to go about oiling for the 109 block I have it out right now so whats the best way to go? . . . . .

What is the purpose of the build? (track, daily, cruiser . . . . . )
Properly set-up stock pump works fine. Key phrase = "Properly".
Do a search. LOTS of info on pumps, oils, springs, and "properly".

Best way is to buy a completely set-up front cover from Nick McHale!
He is very knowledgeable and very honest.
That way you won't worry like some of us have for many years.

 

[SuperSix]

Booster plates and high-volume pumps aren't needed if the front cover is built correctly.

Here's a great writeup on it.
http://www.turbobuicks.com/forums/buick-v6-turbo-tech/39169-how-build-front-cover-oil-pump.html

 

[Schmith]

Using a stock turbo 60lb injectors E85 and chip, street use looking for 12's. a Booster plate is cheap why not use one? Need to be able to BEAT on it sometimes. stock 87 109.

 

[SuperSix]

Set up correctly, there's no need to "boost" anything, and I don't like having to use more gaskets. Some confuse Melling oil pump repair plates with "boost" plates.The repair plates are for when the pump top (bottom?) gets worn badly. Just buy a replacement from Full Throttle, or do the work in the link I posted. Lots or tedious sanding, and drilling/porting a NOS A/C front cover for the first time was terrifying, to say the least.

Blueprinting a front cover and oil pump isn't easy - I did mine myself, but in hind sight, I should have looked at a T/A complete cover or something like that. (Is earlbrown still selling these?)

Some pics from my rebuild:
Sanding almost done:

Repair plate that was in and running, after I cleaned it up and Scotchbrited it. I didn't use it once I read and searched more.

Gears I ended up replacing for new:

 

[Schmith]

SuperSix, How much did this cost you? and what kind of pressure do you have? what kind of pressure is ideal?

 

[Ttype6]

Using a stock turbo 60lb injectors E85 and chip, street use looking for 12's. a Booster plate is cheap why not use one? Need to be able to BEAT on it sometimes. stock 87 109.

The booster plate is a good idea.There's nothing that Earl brown or anyone else does that does what the booster plate does. It mostly increases idle pressure. If you want to do this you'll need to use,only,the Ruggles/Kenne-Bell plate. The one pictured above doesn't do what the Ruggles/Kenne-Bell plate does because of the hole in the middle of the plate. You don't need or want a high volume pump.

 

[SuperSix]

SuperSix, How much did this cost you? and what kind of pressure do you have? what kind of pressure is ideal?

Just the front cover, seals, wet/dry sandpaper, etc. Not much. Maybe 150.00? I forget what I paid for the front cover.

I haven't installed the motor yet, I don't know what my pressures are - Ideal? 20psi hot, 60+ cold. Again, opinions vary.

The booster plate is a good idea.There's nothing that Earl brown or anyone else does that does what the booster plate does. It mostly increases idle pressure. If you want to do this you'll need to use,only,the Ruggles/Kenne-Bell plate. The one pictured above doesn't do what the Ruggles/Kenne-Bell plate does because of the hole in the middle of the plate. You don't need or want a high volume pump.

I disagree. If the oiling system is set up CORRECTLY from the start, there's no need for any booster plates. Why introduce another point of failure?

 

[ryan319]

the stock oil pump/cover setup is adequate. you don't need a high volume pump or booster plate. not because of the cost, but just because the stock oil pump properly set up is enough.

 

[Ttype6]

I disagree. If the oiling system is set up CORRECTLY from the start, there's no need for any booster plates. Why introduce another point of failure?

I didn't say that it was needed,but I wouldn't run without one because it increases efficiency.What did I say that was untrue? What's going to fail? I haven't had an oil pressure related problem or leak from any gasket on my car since I purchased the car in 1989. If the one oil pump gasket that you use hasn't failed or leaked,what makes you think that one or both of the gaskets that I use (the same ones you use) will fail or leak?

Again,I'm not saying it's necessary.
Again there is nothing that you can do to the oiling system on our Buick that does what the Ruggles/Kenne-bell booster plate does. Do what ever you want to the oil pump.If after that you add the booster plate,your oil pump becomes more efficient.Please don't just say you disagree.Tell us why this statement isn't true.

 

[turbo nasty]

You want steel gears wearing on aluminum or a steel plate? Which one will be more wear resistant? Nuff said. I wont build a cover without a melling p 201

 

[Ttype6]

You want steel gears wearing on aluminum or a steel plate? Which one will be more wear resistant? Nuff said. I wont build a cover without a melling p 201

Nothing wrong with that plate,but it does nothing different than putting a new cover on would do. If engine bearings where made out of cast iron they would wear better. Aluminum has other qualities that make it desirable and the insignificant wear that we are talking about makes no difference.

 

[Schmith]

Nothing wrong with that plate,but it does nothing different than putting a new cover on would do. If engine bearings where made out of cast iron they would wear better. Aluminum has other qualities that make it desirable and the insignificant wear that we are talking about makes no difference.

What kind of oil pressure are you seeing with your setup?

 

[turbo nasty]

Nothing wrong with that plate,but it does nothing different than putting a new cover on would do. If engine bearings where made out of cast iron they would wear better. Aluminum has other qualities that make it desirable and the insignificant wear that we are talking about makes no difference.

Im not going to get into a pissing match over use plate or not. I have pulled covers off of several 30k and less mile cars that people have wanted to changed the timing set due to the age not miles.
Every one I have seen has had to be sanded flat due to grooves......FWIW you wont buy a built cover from TA without a plate...That should tell you something.

But more than one way to skin a cat..

Cheers

 

[Ttype6]

What kind of oil pressure are you seeing with your setup?

25-60. Any of these setups can and do produce the same high rpm pressures. None of these setups protect the engine any better than the others. Do which ever one you want and you'll be fine.

 

[Ttype6]

Every one I have seen has had to be sanded flat due to grooves.

Have you ever taken before and after min and max pressure readings?

 

[turbo nasty]

Cant say what it was when sanded flat w/o booster plate simply sanded.
Can say however that the porting/blending cover, new gears prepped, yellow spring, setting up tight end clearance with TA Shim kit & melling plate......
Typical increase, hot in gear idle psi with same weight oil 5-10 psi. Biggest thing was it comes up faster with rpms and is working better/easier.
If the pump is good......then the clearances in the bearings dictate PSI.

 

[RED LS1]

I have a stock cover. I did all the blueprinting stuff to it. I used Melling HV gears. I used a new steel plate athe bottom of the gears. I forget which spring.

It came out very tight. I'm getting:
60-70psi cold idle. 80psi under load
40-45psi hot idle. 65-69 under load

It seems to be okay accept that it will reveal some oil smoke every once in a while from the tailpipes. I'm not sure if I should pull the wear plate out and just see where i'm at with the factory housing. I'm also wondering if I should change out the spring to see if it can lower 10-15 lbs.

What do you guys think?

 

[Paul Lohr]

That's pretty good oil pressure at hot idle. Here is one that is 12-15 psi.

Thread 373503, post #7

Oil smoke maybe is from valve stems or lack of valve stem seals?

 

[turbodave231]

[QUOTENothing wrong with that plate,but it does nothing different than putting a new cover on would do. ][/QUOTE]

I'll disagree with your statement. And here is my reasoning: aluminum has twice the expansion rate of cast iron. One of the reasons the Buick pump is a poor design is because the gear housing and cover is made from aluminum. The critical clearances (Gear to gear, Gear to Pocket and Gear end play) all change (expand) when the pump reaches operating temp because the aluminum housing grows twice as fast as the cast iron gears. The same design pump with a cast iron housing and cast iron cover would perform much better (like a SBC for instance).

Adding a stable thrust surface to the aluminum housing eliminates one of the pump's deficiencies. I have also observed the condition of the cover and gears on many engines I have disassembled. Most I see are scored quite badly. The soft aluminum surface can't stand up to the iron gears (and debris that end up in the pan) and becomes scored. I think a cast iron wear plate is a great upgrade to any Buick pump and I will not build a front cover without one. A new aluminum cover is not the answer in my opinion. If it were I'd begin resurfacing the covers and skip the plate altogether.