Well, its IMO true the head is the limiter.

[Street Lethal]

your seriously gonna bring Nelson into this thread WTF ! that's histarical ... yeah there is the definition of street car

Why wouldn't I? Not the first time I conversed with those guys, they are an incredible bunch. I think what you need to understand is that your giving manufacturers way too much credit with so called technology, when all they do is design an engine for around 500-600 horsepower, DETUNE it before it hits the factory down to a more feasible number, and that is the number that gets quoted in all of the magazines. Now the aftermarket comes in and claims their piece of the pie by selling you a "tune" through flashing the ECU for more power, when the power was already there to begin with, and the injectors are there from the factory to compensate. Compare that with say and old TPI engine that came with a broomstick for a camshaft, and 22-lb injectors, yet still ran 13's on a good day. If the air and fuel isn't there from the factory, you can't blame engine technology. The only thing that improved is the processing speed for self correction, and I don't mean just for the VE. You think the engines from, say, BMW's are really that great, for example? Do you know what makes them so great? Did you ever hear of ion-sense tuning? Imagine an engine, any engine, that will self correct for fuel and spark in any gear and in any RPM, Open Loop, Closed Loop, doesn't matter. That is what makes new engines so great, but that can be applied to any engine, and if you want more power from any engine, allow it to breath more up top like the newer engines do...

 

[BEATAV8]

Not sure why any GN or TTA couldn't be brought "up to snuff" technologically with the aftermarket parts available? And still be called a Buick with a straight face....

Sure the 109 block is old low tech. So ditch it and step up to a TA.

 

[dsmith4994]

hey brian
you should buy my TT/A #427 I have for sale and show them how its done
a sl65 (runs 11.9 1/4 mile stock) costs 210 grand unfortunately they have a reputation for breaking down and costing a lot of money to service them if and when you can find anyone qualified to fix them in the first place.
you can get my TT/A for $9500 or less put another 10 grand into it and show these boys how its done.
Start off with stock block and heads and see how far you can push it.
Then work your way up to something comparable to the way your GN is set up
Let us all know how to do it so we can then see what works.
if anyone can do it you can .... Dave

 

[bison]

hey brian
you should buy my TT/A #427 I have for sale and show them how its done
a sl65 (runs 11.9 1/4 mile stock) costs 210 grand unfortunately they have a reputation for breaking down and costing a lot of money to service them if and when you can find anyone qualified to fix them in the first place.
you can get my TT/A for $9500 or less put another 10 grand into it and show these boys how its done.
Start off with stock block and heads and see how far you can push it.
Then work your way up to something comparable to the way your GN is set up
Let us all know how to do it so we can then see what works.
if anyone can do it you can .... Dave

Someday I'll fiddle with a 3rd gen maybe. Too many projects going on here. No time to work on my own stuff. I have a brick regal here with a 109 Id race an sl65 up to 150mph. I'm sure you know the car I'm talking about. Nothing to prove beyond that. It would take over 1000hp for an sl65 to even be in the same county. No ass massager needed. The Front wheel drive head isn't as big of a limiter as most think. Trying to run it like a rwd head is the limitation. Dropping cylinder pressure, increasing the hot side of the turbo and raising the operating range will make it work.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[1BADDAM]

okey.. I give up... as much as I love the TTA .. Sorry Its just not competitive now days... a new ZO6 will hand it its ass in EVERYTHING !!! go drive one then tell me how the TTA is competitive.

This is a reason why Ray is driving my old TTA Still a great car IMO though.

 

[Raymond Bunch]

This is a reason why Ray is driving my old TTA Still a great car IMO though.

Frank those are words of war buddy. Bring it on after heads and cam go on... lol

I do agree, dollar for dollar you just can't beat the LS series engine...period. Honestly if my junk ever blows up, I won't be wasting any of my time or money on a rebuild. A 5.3 single turbo will be going in. The LC2 will go into storage until I decide to restore the car.

 

[1BADDAM]

Frank those are words of war buddy. Bring it on after heads and cam go on... lol

I do agree, dollar for dollar you just can't beat the LS series engine...period. Honestly if my junk ever blows up, I won't be wasting any of my time or money on a rebuild. A 5.3 single turbo will be going in. The LC2 will go into storage until I decide to restore the car.

Just remember before you made #1416 quicker - it still handed this 427 cubic inch soon to be huge money pit piece of carbon fiber an a$$ wuppin to the end of the 1320'. Quick kills - end of story.

The Z went into CMS last Friday. WCCH is backed up about 6-8 weeks for the heads - so it will be awhile before its back on the road. 345 NT05R's went on last week as well, so at least it hooks up now. Should be +650 at the crank when it comes back.

 

[Raymond Bunch]

Just remember before you made #1416 quicker - it still handed this 427 cubic inch soon to be huge money pit piece of carbon fiber an a$$ wuppin to the end of the 1320'. Quick kills - end of story.

The Z went into CMS last Friday. WCCH is backed up about 6-8 weeks for the heads - so it will be awhile before its back on the road. 345 NT05R's went on last week as well, so at least it hooks up now. Should be +650 at the crank when it comes back.

That great, Frank! Glad to hear CMS finally had an opening for you. Your car should be a totally different beast, then with a 150 shot on it, hmmm...you know what I'm talking about. Can't wait to see it when it done man!

Hey also, I'll be sending those heads I got from you to west coast cylinder heads for porting. I will also be going with the comp cams 212-212 billet roller cam. Pretty much the same set up I had in my 86 TType that dyno 579 rwhp. Anyway's, after Christmas it will all be getting done. I may go ahead and send the heads out very soon due to the back log at WCCH.

Ray

 

[Street Lethal]

I do agree, dollar for dollar you just can't beat the LS series engine...period.

Dollar for dollar lol? Some people are still under the impression that LS engines don't break down, when they constantly do. Not to mention, when making upwards of 600+ horsepower, one shouldn't be looking for a bargain on parts, they should be paying top dollar, not worrying about dollar for dollar. LS engines look great during a bi-run, but match them up against what's out there, and suddenly reality kicks in. There are still C4's out there stomping on C7's. Ten years ago, some member ran a Joe Overton camshaft with AFR heads, stall, injectors and miniram on their stock short block '90 L98 Iroc-Z, the car ran low elevens, but trapped good enough for tens. Car looked bone stock too. Run it against a new C7 and jaws would drop. But, if we're talking about members who don't lift any tools or do their own wrenching, then yes, it is easier just to just write a check and turn the key on a new vehicle...

 

[turbows6]

Idk, you can make a 1000 rwhp with a junkyard 5.3 and turbo pretty reliably. (Especially if it's a gen 4 motor)

There are 2 local coyote cars with rods/pistons and entry-level blowers, one has a ported TVS, and one has a vortech, the TVS car went 9.75@138 last night and the vortech car went 9.94@138 with a 1.55 short time because it spun. Both are full weight cars that are daily drivers.

You simply aren't going to keep up with that in a TTA... unless you do dramatic changes.

 

[YamikidR1]

Idk, you can make a 1000 rwhp with a junkyard 5.3 and turbo pretty reliably. (Especially if it's a gen 4 motor)

There are 2 local coyote cars with rods/pistons and entry-level blowers, one has a ported TVS, and one has a vortech, the TVS car went 9.75@138 last night and the vortech car went 9.94@138 with a 1.55 short time because it spun. Both are full weight cars that are daily drivers.

You simply aren't going to keep up with that in a TTA... unless you do dramatic changes.

Those # are not 1000rwhp unless they are 4500

 

[turbo89]

Idk, you can make a 1000 rwhp with a junkyard 5.3 and turbo pretty reliably. (Especially if it's a gen 4 motor)

There are 2 local coyote cars with rods/pistons and entry-level blowers, one has a ported TVS, and one has a vortech, the TVS car went 9.75@138 last night and the vortech car went 9.94@138 with a 1.55 short time because it spun. Both are full weight cars that are daily drivers.

You simply aren't going to keep up with that in a TTA... unless you do dramatic changes.

No point in bringing up the FACTS .. just let them carry on with what they believe ...

Long Live the L98 TPI SLUG of yesteryear ! I remember when this neat little Turbo V6 came out that just embarrassed the L98 Tpi cars of the same years... then guys put on heads and cams ... and we had to chip the little Turbo V6 to still embarrass the TPI cars... then it was PAxtons / vortechs on top of the heads and cams ..

then we had to break down and actually do turbo's and intercoolers with a set of champ iron heads to STILL lay waste to the TPI cars...

Now its even easier .. just add a bit of boost to a stock LS motor and a TPI L98 and even a built LC2 is just way behind the 8 ball .... sorry that's just the way it is.
let the TPI motors go .. they were getting their ass handed to them in the 80's 90's by the little 6's let alone the LS motors...

quit kidding yourself a mildy boosted LS motor just with a few tweaks to ring end gap and a few bolt on parts .. will consistently, reliably run in the lower 10's all day long ... and even if something does go south ... the stock shortblocks can be had for DIRT ...

You can HATE on the LS motors all you want ... the bottom line is they make SICK power with very little investment and the best part is that they aren't temperamental little bitches that only run good when the stars align . They are reliable.. easy to work on.. produce power in spades .. plentiful parts .. what more can you ask for !

Your gonna dump in serious jingle on a L98 based setup to compete with a junkyard LS on boost .. same as a LC2

There time has passed !!!


You can hang on to the yesteryears all you want that's not going to change the fact that the new motors make more power with less effort .... just look at what the coyote motors you bring up are doing .. SICK POWER ..

 

[Jerryl]

While a turbo V8 should be capable of more/stupid HP, I am still wondering how this turned into a "LS motor on boost is faster" thread.

Fact is . . . .if i want to convert to turbo'd V8, I head to the V8 section. Lol

 

[turbows6]

Yamikid, a coyote car is a new dohc 5.0 ford. The point I'm making is that "average joe" can bolt on a blower kit and run mid-upper 9's on a full weight daily driver. The vortech car has a completely stock powertrain except for rods/pistons. Even with a 300+ pound driver it ran 9's spinning. The race weight is probably over 4000 pounds and I guarantee it is capable of running 9.60-9.70's.

The root of this is the fact that I have a 2500 pound notchback in my garage that has been coyote swapped that is amost done. I think that is simply a far better platform if I want to keep up with street cars. The hard truth is that 10's aren't a fast street car anymore.

 

[SAMBALLS1]

Lol. This is funny. Sword fights. . . He who has the deepest pockets always wins.

 

[turbo89]

Lol. This is funny. Sword fights. . . He who has the deepest pockets always wins.

NOPE !!! I disagree totally !!!

HE who has the most BRAINS !!! always wins !!!

 

[SAMBALLS1]

I disagree. $$$ makes it so you dont have to think. Some one else does it for you. Case closed. And if u beat them... they just keep digging in their pockets.

 

[SAMBALLS1]

Here an example. If your car runs 9's u probably got about 30k, 8's twice that 7's even more than that 6's i dont even want to talk about.... . .and so on. . . . I guarantee you womt find someone running 7's with a total investment of 20k

You pay to be smart....

 

[dvernst]

No point in bringing up the FACTS .. just let them carry on with what they believe ...

Long Live the L98 TPI SLUG of yesteryear ! I remember when this neat little Turbo V6 came out that just embarrassed the L98 Tpi cars of the same years... then guys put on heads and cams ... and we had to chip the little Turbo V6 to still embarrass the TPI cars... then it was PAxtons / vortechs on top of the heads and cams ..

then we had to break down and actually do turbo's and intercoolers with a set of champ iron heads to STILL lay waste to the TPI cars...

Now its even easier .. just add a bit of boost to a stock LS motor and a TPI L98 and even a built LC2 is just way behind the 8 ball .... sorry that's just the way it is.
let the TPI motors go .. they were getting their ass handed to them in the 80's 90's by the little 6's let alone the LS motors...

quit kidding yourself a mildy boosted LS motor just with a few tweaks to ring end gap and a few bolt on parts .. will consistently, reliably run in the lower 10's all day long ... and even if something does go south ... the stock shortblocks can be had for DIRT ...

You can HATE on the LS motors all you want ... the bottom line is they make SICK power with very little investment and the best part is that they aren't temperamental little bitches that only run good when the stars align . They are reliable.. easy to work on.. produce power in spades .. plentiful parts .. what more can you ask for !

Your gonna dump in serious jingle on a L98 based setup to compete with a junkyard LS on boost .. same as a LC2

There time has passed !!!


You can hang on to the yesteryears all you want that's not going to change the fact that the new motors make more power with less effort .... just look at what the coyote motors you bring up are doing .. SICK POWER ..

When you say very little investment how much $ are you talking? Is this a relative statement. I've got a turbo ta, and I have a 98 with an ls. Nothing is cheap for the ls...

 

[turbo89]

When you say very little investment how much $ are you talking? Is this a relative statement. I've got a turbo ta, and I have a 98 with an ls. Nothing is cheap for the ls...

Depends on what platform you start with ...
to run in the 10's with a TTA your gonna need a trans.. your gonna need a convertor... your gonna need a diff ... downpipe.. turbo.. intercooler
to run a TTA in the mid 10 second Zone regularly your going to need to dump money in the motor ... and not small change either ..
Leaving all that aside and just looking at the motor costs ... I bought 2 LS motors for $400 each ... dump in another $300 to make them boost friendly and your done.
add in another $2000 for your turbo kit .. and now you have a setup that can make 700 hp without issue ... Can you get a TTA to make 700 hp for $2700 ?

NA they are making 550 without issue ... add in low boost and its stupid power.
The LQ9 almost stock with just 10 psi of boost in a 3400 pound car will simply humble the most Built TTA's .. its just not even close .. the best part of the LS motors is that you aren't searching the world over for parts and you can beat them into the ground and they take it... OVER and OVER and OVER ..

Its not a really fair comparison.. as the LS has displacement.. technology .. affordability .. parts selection in its favor.. they have 20 years of tech on the LC2.. and it shows.. I would expect it to outperform 80's technology by a landslide.. and it does.

The Fords are no different .. if you know what powerplant to start with... you can make damn near 1000 hp on a stock motor with just a few tweaks to the powerplants

The TTA is one of my favorite cars.. but they are outmatched powerwise ...and I've let it go as far as keeping up with the jones.. at least with a LC2 in it