Timing chain..cam...valve spring combo - question

[Brad Anderson]

So I have been doing a lot of research and one of the first things I have been told is a must do on my 87 GN with 111,000 miles is to replace the timing chain.

Now in my research there doesn't seem to be a clear winner on the best timing chain for the cars, some guys recommend replacing with stock (apparently the nylon coating is now steel when you buy stock which was/is the problem with the stock chain), others recommend Cloyes where others say Cloyes are poorly made and can cause problems as well. A good amount of people say to go with double roller and that sounds like the best option, from what I have read I might get more noise from a double roller...apparently the nylon coating on stock chain was put there to reduce engine noise but that doesn't really bother me.

Just so you are aware, I plan to keep this car pretty much stock as in I don't plan on making it a 10 second car and dragging it. I love these cars and just plan to take it to shows and drive it around on occassion and want to keep it in the best shape possible - outside of replacing parts as needed and maybe full intake/exhaust I don't plan to do much to the car.

Anyway....I had emailed GBodyParts just because I like their site and so far they are the only place i have ordered parts from but they seem to have a lot of stuff for these cars. They emailed back quickly which I appreciated and recommended I replace the cam as well and obviously the valve springs which I do plan to do but wasn't going to do those yet - I wanted to do the timing chain first because I don't want the stock one to break while driving and cause major problems.

I mentioned my plan to stay close to stock and they recommended this package and I was wondering what you guys think about it, any problems or concerns about this brand or anything? They said this setup is what they recommend to guys who want to stay close to stock but I want to do my best to make sure this is a good buy because I don't want to buy crap and have it break.

http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_i...=1353&osCsid=8808ae7701ef2cf88dfeddc24a76e7ee

Any input you guys could give would be great. I'm also waiting for a call back from the shop i plan to use to see what they think and how much the labor would be to replace the cam while they are doing the timing chain, can't imagine it's much.

Also, if I just wanted to do the cam and timing chain at this time and do the valve springs later since I don't think that labor will be any cheaper to do with the timing chain cause I don't think one has to do with the other, are there any reasons why i should do the valve springs at the same time as the cam or can i wait?

Thanks

 

[whitehot1]

This TA Performance timing chain set may be something you might want to look at getting. It's not cheap but may better serve you than one of the cheaply made ones that can cause problems after awhile. If i had known about this one when i did my engine, it would be in there now.

http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1522B

 

[jasjamz]

That's the timing set I'd use. I wouldn't touch the cam unless it is showing signs of a lobe going flat. Like ticking or a misfits you can't pinpoint. The valve springs I would also leave be because if you aren't looking for performance I can't see you noticing any difference. Now if you plan to increase boost..now thats a different story. Google Turbo Buick Spring Cleaning and with that completed you should.be in good shape.

 

[lolo86GN]

This TA Performance timing chain set may be something you might want to look at getting. It's not cheap but may better serve you than one of the cheaply made ones that can cause problems after awhile. If i had known about this one when i did my engine, it would be in there now.

http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1522B[/quote]

x2... This seems to be the way to go with the timing chain. After reading about it in another post I decided that I would buy this chain even though I had already bought a comp cams double roller chain. Most people will recommend you change the valvesprings as one of the first things on a turbo buick.. The original ones once worn will not stay shut under boost and cause you to lose power. IMO if I was doing timing chain and cam I would also do the lifters and springs... The cam has to be broken in and I would think it a much better idea to break it in with the new spring pressure rather than worn out springs...

 

[GNONYX]

If you're not making over 600hp don't bother getting a double chain. Many on board told me the same thing just get a regular timing chain.
I don't know if there is a issue with Cloyes timing chain, I replaced mine with Cloyes timing chain and sprockets, no issue still running.
This is up to you and if you have the extra time, since you going to drop the oil pan down, why don't you also replace the rear end seal?
With 100,000 mile it might be already be starting to leak or it will leak sooner than you think. At least this way you are cover with front and rear seals.
If you need additional info on any of replacement, let us know and one of the member will chime in to help you out beside myself.

This is what I used, check the site below and compare product and prices.

Timing chain set – Cloyes #C-3018K- E-Bay #http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cloyes-Gear-Product-C3018K-Timing-Set-/110818663272?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19cd4e9b68 - $17.13 free S&H

New tensioner – NAPA http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NTP95158_0191974675 - $4.84


Updated cam button NAPA http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NTP95189_0191974674 - $15.14


Front cover gasket set – NAPA http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt%3dtcs45930%26Ntk%3dKeyword%26Nty%3d1%26N%3d599001%2b101987%2b50008%2b2 -- $9.99

 

[Brad Anderson]

This TA Performance timing chain set may be something you might want to look at getting. It's not cheap but may better serve you than one of the cheaply made ones that can cause problems after awhile. If i had known about this one when i did my engine, it would be in there now.

http://www.taperformance.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TA_V1522B

So clicking on the link there was no pic and very little info, however, when I searched I found a post about this timing chain from TA Performance on here - I'm curious, why the B (Even Fire) instead of the A (Odd Fire)?

It looks like these chains are single roller and again there are so many varying opinions on what's better or if they even make a difference, using double roller vs single. I don't plan on making 600 hp, like I said maybe full exhaust and intake, so if single roller is ok then fine but it seems the prices are about the same so ... idk.

Here is the forum post I found on these timing chains if anyone is interested:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/th...-steel-billet-9-key-timing-chain-sets.338103/

 

[lolo86GN]

So clicking on the link there was no pic and very little info, however, when I searched I found a post about this timing chain from TA Performance on here - I'm curious, why the B (Even Fire) instead of the A (Odd Fire)?

It looks like these chains are single roller and again there are so many varying opinions on what's better or if they even make a difference, using double roller vs single. I don't plan on making 600 hp, like I said maybe full exhaust and intake, so if single roller is ok then fine but it seems the prices are about the same so ... idk.

Here is the forum post I found on these timing chains if anyone is interested:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/th...-steel-billet-9-key-timing-chain-sets.338103/

This is the post that sold me on the TA chain..

http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/timing-chain.381378/

 

[bryesh]

I am in the same boat as you Brad, so I have been looking into this issue as well. I am not 100% sure what to do yet, but I have a suggestion that I don't think I have heard anyone else say. I think that the stock timing set is adequate for a mostly stock engine, except for that cheesy nylon cam sprocket. So I think it is only really necessary to replace that sprocket, and everything else can be re-used if not worn. Metal cam sprockets run about $7 or less at parts stores or the net.

My motor has only 51k miles, so maybe if I had twice that many miles, I would replace everything too.

 

[Brad Anderson]

This is the post that sold me on the TA chain..

http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/timing-chain.381378/

Thanks, this was really informative So apparently if I stick with the stock cam or something close to stock even if I do change it I would want the TA_V1522B Even Fire so that answered that question i had. I liked the details listed in this post about that chain the how typical ones fail at the 3 link sections and so on...i can see why it sold you.

The main reason I wanted to do the timing chain soon is because in my research on these sites, with 111,000 miles, I'm not sure how bad my stock nylon chain is and I've heard if it does break then I just added a lot more parts and labor to fixing everything else that would break

So it sounds like the consensus here is to go with the TA_V1522B timing chain, leave the stock cam alone and technically even the valve springs at this point? Like I said while I do get on the power once in awhile I haven't noticed any real issues, the only thing I could say is it seems to "stop pulling" if you will at a certain point I guess when I floor it but I don't know if that's just me being confused with its nice linear pulling or if it is an issue, if it's even related to the valve springs under boost - but I haven't up'd the boost and don't plan to at this time. It mostly sits in the garage and I take it out for a spin here and there and just started doing some car shows...I just don't want the timing chain to break which is why I am looking.

Thanks again and any more suggestions and such are appreciated.

 

[Brad Anderson]

I am in the same boat as you Brad, so I have been looking into this issue as well. I am not 100% sure what to do yet, but I have a suggestion that I don't think I have heard anyone else say. I think that the stock timing set is adequate for a mostly stock engine, except for that cheesy nylon cam sprocket. So I think it is only really necessary to replace that sprocket, and everything else can be re-used if not worn. Metal cam sprockets run about $7 or less at parts stores or the net.

My motor has only 51k miles, so maybe if I had twice that many miles, I would replace everything too.

Thanks for the post I have read the same thing, the problem with the stock timing set is the nylon top sprocket, however, I also read (not sure if it's true) that it's just a nylon coating and was added by the factory to reduce noise or something like that. At any rate, some other posts I have read, a lot of people recommend replacing it with stock again but that the new stock version of the timing set for this engine doesn't have the nylon coated top sprocket so it should be fine.

Like you I"m trying to do as much research as possible because I don't think I am up to changing this myself, while I could probably figure it out, I don't have the tools and am nervous about messing with the timing and so on so if I have to pay to have this work done I want to make sure I have the best parts for my plan for the car you know?

After reading that other post above regarding the new TA timing set, it really does sound pretty good and has at least sparked my interest over others. Cloyes has been popular in my research but I have seen posts showing the teeth being worn on those very soon after being installed. Rollmaster comes up but they are expensive and according to the TA post have the same 3 link issue.

Anyway...your right about the problem with the stock timing set and so far this new TA set is the front runner I think for me...unless anyone has any bad things to say about it.

 

[lolo86GN]

Thanks, this was really informative So apparently if I stick with the stock cam or something close to stock even if I do change it I would want the TA_V1522B Even Fire so that answered that question i had. I liked the details listed in this post about that chain the how typical ones fail at the 3 link sections and so on...i can see why it sold you.

The main reason I wanted to do the timing chain soon is because in my research on these sites, with 111,000 miles, I'm not sure how bad my stock nylon chain is and I've heard if it does break then I just added a lot more parts and labor to fixing everything else that would break

So it sounds like the consensus here is to go with the TA_V1522B timing chain, leave the stock cam alone and technically even the valve springs at this point? Like I said while I do get on the power once in awhile I haven't noticed any real issues, the only thing I could say is it seems to "stop pulling" if you will at a certain point I guess when I floor it but I don't know if that's just me being confused with its nice linear pulling or if it is an issue, if it's even related to the valve springs under boost - but I haven't up'd the boost and don't plan to at this time. It mostly sits in the garage and I take it out for a spin here and there and just started doing some car shows...I just don't want the timing chain to break which is why I am looking.

Thanks again and any more suggestions and such are appreciated.

You can stick with the stock cam since you are not looking for too serious performance gains... But I would do the valvesprings as even at factory boost levels of 12# they may not be sealing right causing power loss. I found a very interesting write up on GMhightechperformance.com... They took a bone stock TR and started modifying it with all the usual bolt ons etc while dyno testing at each stop... Here is the link to the first article and it talks about valve springs plus some other stuff.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.co...buick_grand_national_simple_bolt_ons_install/

As of last write up the car they are working on is running in the 11's... I know that's not your goal but I think it makes interesting reading nonetheless. Reason I brought up the article is that I'm going to follow that same recipe and see where it takes me... Well at least as time and money allow...lol.. And it might help guide you along the way also.. If you do a search on their website under "turbo buick basics" you will find all the articles for their build...

 

[Brad Anderson]

You can stick with the stock cam since you are not looking for too serious performance gains... But I would do the valvesprings as even at factory boost levels of 12# they may not be sealing right causing power loss. I found a very interesting write up on GMhightechperformance.com... They took a bone stock TR and started modifying it with all the usual bolt ons etc while dyno testing at each stop... Here is the link to the first article and it talks about valve springs plus some other stuff.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.co...buick_grand_national_simple_bolt_ons_install/

As of last write up the car they are working on is running in the 11's... I know that's not your goal but I think it makes interesting reading nonetheless. Reason I brought up the article is that I'm going to follow that same recipe and see where it takes me... Well at least as time and money allow...lol.. And it might help guide you along the way also.. If you do a search on their website under "turbo buick basics" you will find all the articles for their build...

I have read that article as well and want to do some of the same things such as replace the valvesprings and fuel pump and such but again most of those are things I don't feel comfortable doing myself so as you said it's as money is available lol.

The valvesprings are another question, in this article they said they replaced them with the LT1 110 lbs springs, however, in my research I have read that you don't want too high pressure springs because then they won't open properly or something like that ... maybe that's under stock boost where in this article they went with a chip to make more boost which I might do at some point.

I'm still looking into the best valvesprings to get but even if I do lose power, right now I just don't want anything to break so figured the timing chain was the best option out the gate then go from there.

 

[CGASTON]

So I have been doing a lot of research and one of the first things I have been told is a must do on my 87 GN with 111,000 miles is to replace the timing chain.

Now in my research there doesn't seem to be a clear winner on the best timing chain for the cars, some guys recommend replacing with stock (apparently the nylon coating is now steel when you buy stock which was/is the problem with the stock chain), others recommend Cloyes where others say Cloyes are poorly made and can cause problems as well. A good amount of people say to go with double roller and that sounds like the best option, from what I have read I might get more noise from a double roller...apparently the nylon coating on stock chain was put there to reduce engine noise but that doesn't really bother me.

Just so you are aware, I plan to keep this car pretty much stock as in I don't plan on making it a 10 second car and dragging it. I love these cars and just plan to take it to shows and drive it around on occassion and want to keep it in the best shape possible - outside of replacing parts as needed and maybe full intake/exhaust I don't plan to do much to the car.

Anyway....I had emailed GBodyParts just because I like their site and so far they are the only place i have ordered parts from but they seem to have a lot of stuff for these cars. They emailed back quickly which I appreciated and recommended I replace the cam as well and obviously the valve springs which I do plan to do but wasn't going to do those yet - I wanted to do the timing chain first because I don't want the stock one to break while driving and cause major problems.

I mentioned my plan to stay close to stock and they recommended this package and I was wondering what you guys think about it, any problems or concerns about this brand or anything? They said this setup is what they recommend to guys who want to stay close to stock but I want to do my best to make sure this is a good buy because I don't want to buy crap and have it break.

http://www.gbodyparts.com/product_i...=1353&osCsid=8808ae7701ef2cf88dfeddc24a76e7ee

Any input you guys could give would be great. I'm also waiting for a call back from the shop i plan to use to see what they think and how much the labor would be to replace the cam while they are doing the timing chain, can't imagine it's much.

Also, if I just wanted to do the cam and timing chain at this time and do the valve springs later since I don't think that labor will be any cheaper to do with the timing chain cause I don't think one has to do with the other, are there any reasons why i should do the valve springs at the same time as the cam or can i wait?

Thanks

Call Nick Micale..... www.arizonagn.com

He will square you away...

 

[lolo86GN]

I have read that article as well and want to do some of the same things such as replace the valvesprings and fuel pump and such but again most of those are things I don't feel comfortable doing myself so as you said it's as money is available lol.

The valvesprings are another question, in this article they said they replaced them with the LT1 110 lbs springs, however, in my research I have read that you don't want too high pressure springs because then they won't open properly or something like that ... maybe that's under stock boost where in this article they went with a chip to make more boost which I might do at some point.

I'm still looking into the best valvesprings to get but even if I do lose power, right now I just don't want anything to break so figured the timing chain was the best option out the gate then go from there.

Money and more money.. lol.. I call mine the money pit... driven it like 100 miles in a year that i've had it... It's about to go back to paint cuz they did a terrible job the first time...lol.. so i wont see the car for another 3 months at least... As for the valvesprings the issue with the higher pressures is that you might wipe a lobe on the stock cam... Some people recommend to change them to 80# springs to minimize the chances of that.. I bought a set from Kirbans that are 100# springs for around $50... Haven't got around to installing them yet but I will when I do the timing chain, rear main seal and Alky and turn the boost up to 25#... Hotwire and fuel pump are not really that hard to do if you know how to wrench a little.. took me about 2 hours by myself to drop the tank, change the pump, and run the hotwire to the alternator... Paying someone would have been expensive for everything i've done to the car so far... Don't be afraid to wrench UNLESS you have never done it before.. Kind of makes it more satisfying to know you have blood sweat and tears into the car... Cuz believe me, you will leave all three under the hood of one of these... lol

 

[Brad Anderson]

Money and more money.. lol.. I call mine the money pit... driven it like 100 miles in a year that i've had it... It's about to go back to paint cuz they did a terrible job the first time...lol.. so i wont see the car for another 3 months at least... As for the valvesprings the issue with the higher pressures is that you might wipe a lobe on the stock cam... Some people recommend to change them to 80# springs to minimize the chances of that.. I bought a set from Kirbans that are 100# springs for around $50... Haven't got around to installing them yet but I will when I do the timing chain, rear main seal and Alky and turn the boost up to 25#... Hotwire and fuel pump are not really that hard to do if you know how to wrench a little.. took me about 2 hours by myself to drop the tank, change the pump, and run the hotwire to the alternator... Paying someone would have been expensive for everything i've done to the car so far... Don't be afraid to wrench UNLESS you have never done it before.. Kind of makes it more satisfying to know you have blood sweat and tears into the car... Cuz believe me, you will leave all three under the hood of one of these... lol

Yea I get the satisfying part of doing the work yourself, that's part of the reason I bought this car. I mean it's in great shape, i think, as is but i wanted to learn to do more work myself and might try the fuel pump + hotwire kit, could probably do that. I have worked on cars before a little, usually newer cars, replaced wastegates, intercoolers, intakes, exhausts, etc but things like engine mechanical like valve springs, cams, timing chains, etc make me nervous.

When i get around to doing the valve springs I will probably post something else I checked out Nick's site above and for their rebuilt engines they use the 206 Comp cams and springs that GBodyParts recommended so maybe I'll use those at that time....who knows. Thanks for the info and good luck with your car

 

[williamsGN]

From another thread.

The problem with the double roller replacement timing sets in that price range is they all use a cast cam gear which wears very fast. Within 3-5000 miles there will be a lots of chain stretch, and you cannot use a chain tensioner with a double roller. :frown:

The less expensive sets are even worse in their longevity. This is not an opinion, as I have installed and replaced hundreds of these Buick chain sets over the past 25 years.

You do have 2 other options, one like the Cloyes, and other brands of double roller sets that use a billet cam gear. The other option is a TA set less expensive than the double roller type which does use billet gears and a silent chain where you can use a tensioner.

As far as changing valve springs, with most of the stock replacements I have seen and experienced, it is a waste of time and $$$ unless you are upgrading for more performance. This is not a maintaince item like the chain.

If you are going to do mods in the future, that is the time to determine if to do it, and exactly which spring to choose.

 

[GNONYX]

So clicking on the link there was no pic and very little info, however, when I searched I found a post about this timing chain from TA Performance on here - I'm curious, why the B (Even Fire) instead of the A (Odd Fire)?

It looks like these chains are single roller and again there are so many varying opinions on what's better or if they even make a difference, using double roller vs single. I don't plan on making 600 hp, like I said maybe full exhaust and intake, so if single roller is ok then fine but it seems the prices are about the same so ... idk.

Here is the forum post I found on these timing chains if anyone is interested:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/th...-steel-billet-9-key-timing-chain-sets.338103/

Here is the Cloyes site with their picture and a picture below of mine TR of the timing chain and sprockets
http://cloyes.mycarparts.net/products/Cloyes-C-3018K?brand_id=376

 

[87-WE2]

This is the post that sold me on the TA chain..

http://turbobuick.com/forums/threads/timing-chain.381378/

I like that thread because it shows you the level of experience and knowledge that Nick has (as well as patience for newbs like me). I will be going with the TA billet link set very soon (Feb or March '13). I like the idea of keeping the tensioner and you can't use a tensioner if you go with a double.

I must also add that I recently changed valve springs from stock to Comp 980's. These are the recommended upgrade from stock for a stock flat tappet cam. Not a huge increase in spring pressure, but it's noticeable. I definitely feeel the difference in 3rd gear acceleration. I will soon be documenting the increase with a trip to the track. Changing the springs is not a bad job. It took me a while to do though as I'm a beginner. I'd be glad to help if you decide to do them yourself.

 

[we4Mateo]

T/A also sells stock replacement valve springs, like 75 pounders, and I use them in my car at 25psi+ without issue. You need good springs, but not heavy springs unless you are loosing valve control. Since you are just driving yours, replace your old springs with these and it'll run like a strong stocker and you won't need to worry about wiping a lobe. Use zddp anyway though if you still have the stock cam in there.

 

[lolo86GN]

I like that thread because it shows you the level of experience and knowledge that Nick has (as well as patience for newbs like me). I will be going with the TA billet link set very soon (Feb or March '13). I like the idea of keeping the tensioner and you can't use a tensioner if you go with a double.

I must also add that I recently changed valve springs from stock to Comp 980's. These are the recommended upgrade from stock for a stock flat tappet cam. Not a huge increase in spring pressure, but it's noticeable. I definitely feeel the difference in 3rd gear acceleration. I will soon be documenting the increase with a trip to the track. Changing the springs is not a bad job. It took me a while to do though as I'm a beginner. I'd be glad to help if you decide to do them yourself.

So the comp 980 are 80# springs? I got some from kirbans but they are the 100# ones and now i'm debating wether to put these on at all now...