Third time's the charm....I hope!

CliffyC

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Ok, this will be the third time in the last two years I’ve had my engine out. First time, a wasted crank, second and third times a blown head gasket. This is not cool.

I’ve read up on most of the old threads about blown head gaskets and I want to make sure this doesn’t happen again. Here’s what I’ve learned.

1) The three most important things to keep from blowing a head gasket are, tuning, tuning, tuning. It was a struggle to keep the car from knocking on the street or at the track. Most of the time I would have little or zero knock and others it would go to red on my knock gauge. I tried taking out some timing on my chip but the gasket gave out anyway.

2) Make sure you don’t have a fuel pump problem. I read where one guy set his pressure at 43lbs but didn’t know the pressure would take a dive at WOT. This is one of the reasons I think I’ll switch my scan tool to Power Logger. I understand you can connect it up to record both fuel pressure and boost. By the way, is it just me or does anyone else fine it difficult to watch the boost gauge and knock gauge while steering and trying to cut a good light all at the same time.

3) Cometics are the bullet proof gasket but Felpros are the way to go if your car is street strip and your not running meta boost. Again, I read where Cometics are great and guys have little trouble with them but some say that your head gaskets are the safety valve in these high output little engines. If the tuning or something else is wrong then its better to blow a gasket than grenade a piston or throw a rod.

4) Alcohol is a safe way to run 20 plus lbs of boost without knock. My system is the SMC. As you probably know it doesn’t cut in until 11 or 12 lbs of boost. I’ve always been a little unsure if it’s really getting the juice when it’s supposed to. There’s another thing I have to watch. Is that little yellow light coming on? I think I’ll switch to Razors progressive system just so I‘ll feel a little more secure.

5) Retorque them head bolts. Here’s where I may have blown it (pun intended). I have ARP head studs and I thought sure you didn’t need to retorque. But then I read where you do need to. Well, I didn’t! Maybe that was the whole problem.

Anyway, if any of you experts would like to chime in on this, tell me where I’ve gone wrong or add what ever, I sure would appreciate the help. I know the head gasket subject has been beat to death on this site, but maybe there’s something new under the sun. Thanks.
 
Not the expert...

but here are a few suggestions:
1/Tuning:biggrin:
2/P/L is great; assuming you have the f/p hot wired, so as not to lose fuel at wot, should the voltage fall off. You may want to try the audible k/gage so as not to have to keep an eye on the kr. I run both, w/my k/gage side by side w/the boost gage.
3/My vote is for the safety valve, at least until you get #1 above, closer to optimum.
4/Don't know what smc sys. you have, but I run the older unit, and I have to remember to prime the system before using it. otherwise the boost will hit the 28#s long before the meth. reaches the up-pipe.:eek: (are you using meth or some other alky?) Don't forget you can move the turn on point of the smc up or down as you require. I have mine set for 10#s.
5/Retorque or not to retorque! that is the question! 65#s-85#s and anywhere in between. If the failure was do to skipping the procedure, try retorquing this time around and that may be one less variable in the equation.:confused:
But it is better, the failed hg, than to become an involentary member of the rotcc!:eek: (ran over the crank club):redface:
 
Thanks Shadowii,
I like all of the above, especially the audible knock gauge. Can you set those to come on at certain number of degrees of retard, or what ever?

My fuel pump is hot wired, I don't think that's been the problem or I would have seen lean readings on my Direct Scan. I'd rather switch to Power Logger and record the reading than mount a fuel pressure gauge where I can see it. Just another thing I'd have to watch.

I don't know weather my SMC is the older or newer unit. What's the difference? I just know mine has a light that indicates low alky and I never allow it to run dry so I would think priming should not be a problem.

I will definatly retorque this time around. I figure even if it's not necessary then what can it hurt.
 
Thanks Shadowii,
I like all of the above, especially the audible knock gauge. Can you set those to come on at certain number of degrees of retard, or what ever?

My fuel pump is hot wired, I don't think that's been the problem or I would have seen lean readings on my Direct Scan. I'd rather switch to Power Logger and record the reading than mount a fuel pressure gauge where I can see it. Just another thing I'd have to watch.

I don't know weather my SMC is the older or newer unit. What's the difference? I just know mine has a light that indicates low alky and I never allow it to run dry so I would think priming should not be a problem.

I will definatly retorque this time around. I figure even if it's not necessary then what can it hurt.

newer kit is progressive...mine cuts on @ 7psi and full spray @ 20
 
Thanks Shadowii,
I like all of the above, especially the audible knock gauge. Can you set those to come on at certain number of degrees of retard, or what ever?

My fuel pump is hot wired, I don't think that's been the problem or I would have seen lean readings on my Direct Scan. I'd rather switch to Power Logger and record the reading than mount a fuel pressure gauge where I can see it. Just another thing I'd have to watch.

I don't know weather my SMC is the older or newer unit. What's the difference? I just know mine has a light that indicates low alky and I never allow it to run dry so I would think priming should not be a problem.

I will definatly retorque this time around. I figure even if it's not necessary then what can it hurt.

newer kit is progressive...mine starts spraying @ 7psi and full spray @ 20
 
The audible ....

knock gage changes in pitch as the knock increases. The closer the knock gets to the red, the more deafening it becomes. That's why I use the two items, so I can look at the k/gage to see the level of knock when the audible gets my attention.

The instructions for the older, non-progressive unit, requires the use of the priming button prior to it's use. Just press the red button until the engine stumbles, then you know the alky is there.:)
 
I'm liking the sound of that audible knock gauge (no pun) now even more. Where do you get one?

Also, are you telling me I should be pressing that red button every time I think I'm going to boost over 11lbs? I know that button is there to test the unit, and I've used it, but I didn't know I should do it every time. Anyway, I guess there's another thing to remember.

Thanks for the info...keep it coming!
 
Caspers sells....

the audible one. I use the test button at start-up in the morning, afternoon, night time:biggrin: better safe than sorry. Things happen in a hurry at 28# of boost!:eek:
 
If you get little to no knock on some days and light up the "red" on others you have issues and may be doing the job again:eek: . "knock" shouldn't be inconsistent, If fact it shouldn't be there at all;) Have you tried race gas at reasonable boost levels. There should be 0.0 knock retard. I would be concerned with your alky pump. How is the pressure? Priming the alky only takes a second. Hit the button prior to your pass, ensures alky is at the nozzle and the lines are filled.
Ross
 
Ross L, yeah that knock thing drove me crazy. I'm pretty sure there are other "issues" but figuring out what they are is the problem.

It could have had a lot to do with not priming the alky. I remember that if I stabbed it quick on the street I'd get the red lights, but if I pressed the peddle slower to the floor it would't be nearly as bad. I did try race gas at the last, just before the gasket went. The knock did go away but the car was running like crap at the time so no knock was the least of my worries.

I have never checked the pressure at the alky pump so I can't say. The engine's on the garage floor now so I'll check when it's back together (hopefully by next Christmas):biggrin:
 
As you can see from my signature I've got a lot of good stuff on the car but it's never really seemed to all come together. Mid to low 12's in the quarter and high 7's in the eighth is the best it's done. I'm looking for at least mid 11's if it will hold together next time. I'll probably add 60lb injectors just for kicks! Any other suggestions?
 
Any other suggestions?
I have a couple:
1. Make sure the head/deck surfaces are cleaned with brake cleaner (assuming the surfaces are flat). Not so much as a finger smudge! Place the heads in place and torque to 10 lbs. Use old intake gasket and torque the intake to 10 lbs. After step 2, remove the intake and properly install new gasket.
2. I've not seen "torque cycle" mentioned. This is imperative with both studs and bolts regarding fastener stretch and thread mating. Don't believe it? Torque all to spec. Mark (index) the first bolt. Now loosen 45 degrees and torque to spec five times. You'll find the fastener now has at least 20 degrees more positive rotation. Repeat for all fasteners on both heads simultaneously and in sequence.
 
If you're blowing headgaskets one of the first things I would check is the heads and block deck with a straight edge...if they aren't absolutely flat you can blow headgaskets with zero knock...
 
TurboGN, When I put the heads on last time I did use the torque cycle as specified by ARP. However, I didn't torque them with the intake on as you suggested. I'll admit that does make sence.

MSDGN, I took the heads and block into the machinest today for a clean up and a check. He told me he could see fine grinding lines on the surface of the Champion irons that indicates they were surfaced with the wheel on high speed. The heads were flat but not very smooth. He said he didn't think this is what caused the gasket to go but he would resurface them on slow speed to make them smoother. Also, he builds lots of high compression race engines and is a big believer in the multi-layer type gasket. He said Felpro makes their version of the Cometic (not for Buick though) and they work extremely well.
 
Tuning- used a wideband O2 setup, as well as an EGT. Don't rely on a scanmaster or knock gauge.

If you're getting the heads milled, you're also going to change the angle where the heads meet the intake. Make sure that your machinist knows and compensates for this. I like the 9441 Felpro head gaskets.

Who's building the engine? Somebody familiar with the LC2, or a SBC specialist?

I wouldn't add the 60s for kicks, I'd add them as they are the best hi-Z injector on the market. Tuning for the 42.5s has always been a challenge- the 60s are simply better. Make sure you change the chip also.

If you're going to run alky, go progressive. I like PAC, but I understand the new SMC progressive kit also works well. You CAN get into the 11s without alky, but you have to get very familiar with tuning the car.

Trying to push these cars can get you in all sorts of trouble (as you well know:eek: )- lean is mean and fast, but it's also only 1 step from pulling the engine. I've said for years, and I'll say it again, it's too easy to throw lots of cash at these cars and go SLOWER! You should be much faster that the times you're running- but part of that may be launch technique, 60ft times, etc.

Good luck!
 
Ok, this will be the third time in the last two years I’ve had my engine out. First time, a wasted crank, second and third times a blown head gasket. This is not cool.

I’ve read up on most of the old threads about blown head gaskets and I want to make sure this doesn’t happen again. Here’s what I’ve learned.

1) The three most important things to keep from blowing a head gasket are, tuning, tuning, tuning. It was a struggle to keep the car from knocking on the street or at the track. Most of the time I would have little or zero knock and others it would go to red on my knock gauge. I tried taking out some timing on my chip but the gasket gave out anyway.

2) Make sure you don’t have a fuel pump problem. I read where one guy set his pressure at 43lbs but didn’t know the pressure would take a dive at WOT. This is one of the reasons I think I’ll switch my scan tool to Power Logger. I understand you can connect it up to record both fuel pressure and boost. By the way, is it just me or does anyone else fine it difficult to watch the boost gauge and knock gauge while steering and trying to cut a good light all at the same time.

3) Cometics are the bullet proof gasket but Felpros are the way to go if your car is street strip and your not running meta boost. Again, I read where Cometics are great and guys have little trouble with them but some say that your head gaskets are the safety valve in these high output little engines. If the tuning or something else is wrong then its better to blow a gasket than grenade a piston or throw a rod.

4) Alcohol is a safe way to run 20 plus lbs of boost without knock. My system is the SMC. As you probably know it doesn’t cut in until 11 or 12 lbs of boost. I’ve always been a little unsure if it’s really getting the juice when it’s supposed to. There’s another thing I have to watch. Is that little yellow light coming on? I think I’ll switch to Razors progressive system just so I‘ll feel a little more secure.

5) Retorque them head bolts. Here’s where I may have blown it (pun intended). I have ARP head studs and I thought sure you didn’t need to retorque. But then I read where you do need to. Well, I didn’t! Maybe that was the whole problem.

Anyway, if any of you experts would like to chime in on this, tell me where I’ve gone wrong or add what ever, I sure would appreciate the help. I know the head gasket subject has been beat to death on this site, but maybe there’s something new under the sun. Thanks.

Since you did not say what type of expert one need be to chime in...:)

1) I don't know, not that I'm saying not to tune(that would be foolish), but as hard as I have knocked my engines for so long, I believe proper machining and assembly is the key to head gaskets.

Sounds like you are working with the right person on that right now.

2) Oh yeah - that is why I had to buy a new crank.

3) I have used several different gaskets, never a Cometic, and they have all worked 100% for me

4) Alcohol is good!

5) No - not bolts; do like Dave said.

Also the sequence is important. I will set the wrench to about 35 and not take it to that the first time, just a good snug in sequence and then on the second take it till it clicks, and then another setting between the first and the max. I like to have a good pull on the last, final max torque-as in if 100 is the spec, the last pull would be about 80 to 100 so I get a fair amount of travel on the wrench.

The intake on idea sounds like it could only help make it that more accurate.

When my fuel pumps failed, they were the last thing I was expecting to have trouble with so I kept hitting it while looking at other items on the scan tool. Having that audible Knock Gauge seems like one of the better ideas for those of us that have cranked it up. By the time the knock can be heard - it has gotten seriously bad.
 
Hey guys, this is really great....lots of super ideas! Here's my plan for now:
1. Definatly go with the audible k/gauge.
2. Upgrade to 60lb injectors.
3. Install a wide band O2 setup.
4. New TT chip to match the upgrades.
5. Change to Power Logger to record fuel pressure and boost.
6. Make sure heads and deck are clean, perfectly flat and smooth.
7. Use the proper torque pattern and torque cycle and have the manifold on when installing heads.
8. Retorque head studs after warm up and check every-so-often afterwards.

I'm not sure I need to switch to the progressive alky right now. I think not priming the SMC setup was part of the problem. Also, I haven't decided for sure on which gaskets to go with. I know most have said stick with the Felpro 9441's, but I'm leaning toward the Cometics. At this point I'm so frustrated with blowing gaskets I'm willing to take the chance that something else may go instead.

SouthernCal GN, my machinist isn't really "milling" the heads, just resurfacing them to take out the old grinding lines. He said he would take off only 1 or 2 thousanths. I have every confidence in him, he's a perfectionist and although he's only done four of five Buick turbos, he follows my directions to the tee.
 
Stick with the Felpros (or even the OE Victor gaskets if you can find them). No magic- they just work.

Also, run water and RMI-25 vice coolant. If you do blow another head gasket, it's not too hard to change it out in the car- and, with no antifreeze in the system, you won't have to worry about bearings being eaten.

Have fun!
 
OK, I hate beating a dead horse here, but splain me again. Why should I go back to Felpro when I've blown two sets of them and I'm willing to take the chance something else may go with the Cometics? Are the Felpros "better" or is it I shouldn't need the Cometics with what I've got? I reolize I probably had other issues, and I intend on getting it right this time, but the Felpros sure didn't work before! Is my logic messed up or what:confused:
 
Top