straight water vs Methanol or a Methanol mixture

[Razor]

Originally posted by d0n_3d
i keep hearing people talking about spraying methanol instead of alcohol...right now i spray 100% denatured alcohol with a dual nozzle smc kit and i've got the boost up as high as 25-26 psi with a te-44 and stock motor stock intercooler...with no knock...

if i go any higher i start knocking...usually higher than 25 psi...will methanol allow me to run higher boost just a little bit? i heard methanol is very corrosive and should not be used...i assume i can't use it in a stock SMC setup right? i would love to use methanol if i can run higher boost on it than alcohol and it even costs way less...

Looks like you hit that performance wall with the SMC kit. Two problems, first is that 25-26 is about the limit of that TE44..before it starts really heating the air, then you have the limit of the amount of flow out of the SMC kit... When pump speed 10 is no longer enough Dont ask how I know this

You can start upping the timing and upping the boost, problem is you need more alky and less fuel. Rite now you have a lot of fuel and some alky.

Steve doesnt recommend using methanol with the pump in his kit. I have a buddy that increases the amount of Klotz and has been running Methanol since April this year.He only runs 22-23 PSI of boost. So far so good..but hey..I cannot recommend against the kit builders recommendations. Next problem is that the pump in the kit wont flow what you need/want to really get serious.

You've outgrown your 20 PSI kit..time for some decisions..

Try adding water since its unlimited octane...

No dont do this..

 

[boostm3]

>>Try adding water since its unlimited octane<<

You know, its such a different world you guys are operating within that it makes comparison very difficult.

For instance, you consider 20 psi on your cars to be low boost. Yet on our cars, if we can get to 11 psi, we're doing well. Of course, our engines, stock, have a static CR of 10.5:1!

Im making about 330 sae rwhp at 11 psi. Stock, the cars usually record around 200 rwhp. A 65% power increase, on a high cr engine with no internal mods is no small accomplishment. Nobody is recommending going higher boost than this, without doing some internal mods. So playing with pure alky in my setup doesnt make much sense, since the top side gains are limited internally anyway. In addition, being obdii, we have no simple means of altering timing, to take advantage. Most we can do is bump the boost via pulley, just to the point where knock sets in without the fluid injection. Then, the fluid injection will alow this boost level by suppressing the knock, so that knock induced timing retard is kept at bay. Thats pretty much where I am now. With a mixture of water and methanol.

If there are still big gains to be had over what Im now producing, using straight methanol, the only way to test it out would be to free up some headroom in the engine first.

 

[Red Regal T]

Originally posted by Razor
No no no RedRegalT.. if anyone should see this its you.. since there is nothing cheaper than water to run.

Alcohol costs money..water doesnt.. some want to save money..

I HEARD YOU CAN SAVE MONEY USING PROPANE.BUT WATER IS CHEAPER?..........WHERE CAN I GET IT?

 

[boostm3]

What is it about propane which works well in this setup? ie, is it a coolant, is it a fuel, or what, exactly, which promotes power?

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by boostm3
>>Try adding water since its unlimited octane<<

You know, its such a different world you guys are operating within that it makes comparison very difficult.

If there are still big gains to be had over what Im now producing, using straight methanol, the only way to test it out would be to free up some headroom in the engine first.

See if your happy with your results, then there is no need for improvement.

Now if you squeeze your combination a little more where you start seeing some detonation, then you can play with more alky in your mix and see if it makes a difference. This is off course if you squeeze a little more.

My car is 9:1 and I run upwards of 26 PSI on it through a factory intercooler and a bone stock motor. Factory pressure is 16 PSI..

 

[boostm3]

>>My car is 9:1 and I run upwards of 26 PSI on it through a factory intercooler and a bone stock motor. Factory pressure is 16 PSI<<

God bless low static CRs We're both seeing similar increases: Youre running 10 psi over stock; Im running 11 psi over stock, seeing as my car, stock, is NA!

You guys have one thing, though, that I want badly: an Intercooler!!

Im my setup, the engine bay is so jammed, with the large Vortech taking up so much space, that even if I were able to source a fmic core ( the viggen core has worked well in this setup by a tuner using a Rotrex instead of a Vortech blower), the fact is that theres precious little room to plumb the intake piping.

There is one pretty nice, although its still too small, water/air aftercooler for my application. Tuner sells it for about $3000 though. If I were racing the car, Id have to get it or something like it. But for aggressive street use, I think the water/methanol injection is the perfect solution, especially when space is at a premium...

 

[Crazi]

Hmmm, so since water takes longer to evaporate, and usually there are still water droplets (using the aquamist engineers description) in the combustion chamber, alcohol seems better from the strictly cooling stand point in our cars as we generally run 22+psi of boost.

I run 25psi normally and have seen 30. There is alot more pressure going into our combustion chamber even though the CR is lower. Since there is more alcohol to evaporate and it evaporates faster, it cools better like I said before. Granted we are not comparing apples to apples, cause we are injecting more alcohol to make up for the difference in cooling ability.

BoostM3, try 100% methanol for two tanks and let us know how it works. Then you can go back to 50/50 and your pump will be fine. There are guys here who have tested 100% water and now run straight methanol. How about you try coming over to the darkside and use straight methanol for two tanks and let us know how it turns out.

 

[boostm3]

>>BoostM3, try 100% methanol for two tanks and let us know how it works<<

Crazi, thats a perfectly fair suggestion. And honestly, Id really like to try it.

But, do you know how expensive the Aquamist pumps are? Theyre something like 4 or 500 bucks. And honestly, even though if the seals swell, theyre supposed to shrink back after exposure to a water based solution, Im not willing to take that risk. If I could get hold of an alcohol impervious pump, which is able to provide the same 120 psi power Im currently getting, and which would fit into my wiring harness, Id be more than anxious to try it.

But I wouldnt try it for two tankfuls... My tank is a 2 gallon tank, and it takes many months to empty it

 

[WFO]

hey crazi and razor-

what kind of timing are you guys running with your high boost?

 

[Chad Oliver]

Aquamist is niche marketing, who else sells a $500 water injection system? If I had a market like that I surely wouldn't want to compete against systems that cost half as much. Our Buicks were designed with water injection in mind, but the idiots that drive these things and spend more on their cars than you've got in a 99 Dinan BMW. Why wouldn't they use what the engineers envisioned? Because it doesn't work outside of the vacuum.

Boostm3 likes to debate but not do any work himself? You constantly contradict yourself. If it's easy to change the seals for alky then just do it! Don't play years of debating, JUST DO IT! Then you won't need 500 pieces of correspondence before acting. Paralisis by over analysis.

 

[Razor]

Originally posted by WFO
hey crazi and razor-

what kind of timing are you guys running with your high boost?

My all around street chip was a thrasher 93 made for 50's. Only thing is timing was super conservative on it.

Im playing with a 21 degree chip currently..but as soon as it stops raining..last 8 weeks..I have a 22 and a 23 degree chip i'm going to try as well..Ive been cutting back my fuel and upping my methanol..so far so good..wont know until its done on paper U know where

I've has a set of slicks in my car for like a month...

 

[cool 84]

Originally posted by WFO
on that note:

i was helping derek(anarkey)mess with his methanol(100%)injection in his mk4 supra last year,it's very trick,ramps up according to injector pulse.his aftermarket ecu also has charge air data logging.

on an average night(~70º)on pump gas he was pushing ~30# of boost and we were seeing charge air temps in the mid-30º's .

sold me on methanol right then and there.

That's awesome. As quick as the charge air temp guage pegged itself as low as it could go I figured the temp was quite a bit below 70 degrees. We could ease into the gas slowly, watch the temp coming up, and as soon as the power injection light came on the guage instantly pegged itself.
This thread alone is why even though I was running out of injector with my old motor I'm still keeping the 009s for the new combo. Whatever more I need in fuel is going to be delivered in Methanol. An alky kit is cheaper than buying new injectors.

 

[Red Regal T]

Originally posted by boostm3

But, do you know how expensive the Aquamist pumps are? Theyre something like 4 or 500 bucks.

_________________________

 

[boostm3]

>>Boostm3 likes to debate but not do any work himself? You constantly contradict yourself. If it's easy to change the seals for alky then just do it! Don't play years of debating, JUST DO IT! Then you won't need 500 pieces of correspondence before acting. Paralisis by over analysis.<<

I have no doubt that you guys who have done the testing, and shown to your satisfaction that 100% methanol brings the best results in your cars, are telling the truth. So, hopefully for the last time, now open your ears up real wide, Im not disputing that in your applications, alky seems to provide some advantage over a water/alky mix, or straight water. There, can we put an end to this adversarial crap

Now from you guys who have found these results, given that its proven scientifically that Water provides more cooling when injected in correctly atomized droplets, and that pure alky can mess with your afr which may or may not be a good thing depending on what your afrs are prior to the setup, what Id be most interested in hearing is WHY alky works better. The science says water works better. So if methanol is working better, there has to be another reason.

I know there are a bunch of you on this board that like to say, 'I dont care why it works; just that it does'. Which is fine. But sometimes, those with inquisitive minds like to be able to apply principles to help explain. And those principles dont extend to reversing known physical facts.... for instance, its a known fact that water has by far the greater latent heat properties, which explains why it cools better. observed results wont change that. What it means is that you have to look deeper into why its working; not change the facts which are well accepted. Unless you think youve actually uncovered something which reverses a universally believed scientific principle.

Oh, and by the way, why would it be, do you think, that most of the world rallye teams who have run Aquamist setups for years perfer a mixture of at most 50% methanol? Could it be, possibly, that in their cars, a water based system works better?

 

[1badTTA]

Originally posted by boostm3
sometimes, those with inquisitive minds like to be able to apply principles to help explain. And those principles dont extend to reversing known physical facts.... for instance, its a known fact that water has by far the greater latent heat properties, which explains why it cools better. observed results wont change that. What it means is that you have to look deeper into why its working; not change the facts which are well accepted. Unless you think youve actually uncovered something which reverses a universally believed scientific principle.

Well maybe it is because the Alky actually cools the charge air BEFORE it enters the cylinder, and then the fuel (Alky and Gasoline mixture) burns cooler at a correct AFR than just Gasoline. Now Water alone being added to the combustion cycle will only absorb heat inside the cylinder and is simply replacing some of the space taken up by the air fuel mixture which actually makes the power. Once the cylinder temps are lowerd enough by the water, adding more will reduce power. Alcohol on the otherhand is actually making more power with every increase of its amount by cooling the charge more and also burning cooler in the cylinder. You are replacing gasoline with alcohol to get the correct AFR but that AFR is also needing to be changed due to Alky needing a different AFR than Gasoline. The final result when you have the right amount of Gasoline, Air, and Alky is a complete burn inside the cylinder with a larger amount of air (hence the more power) at a lower temperature than just air and gasoline (hence the reduced detonation).

So what about that goes beyond the laws of physics?

 

[boostm3]

>>Now Water alone being added to the combustion cycle will only absorb heat inside the cylinder and is simply replacing some of the space taken up by the air fuel mixture which actually makes the power<<

Im not sure I understand what you mean when you say 'Water alone being added to the combustion cycle will only absorb heat inside the cylinder '. Since the only other place water will absorb heat is in the manifold before the cylinder, it sounds like youre saying that water injection produces no Intake Air cooling. But thats simply ridiculous. Water has been shown to cool the intake charge when used in a well put together water injection system by anywhere from 50 degrees F to over 100 degrees F. So, Im sure you couldnt be saying that. So again, Im not sure what your point is.

I'll ask again, since nobody has bothered to answer it, why is it that so many world rallye teams go with water injection systems with water predominant systems? Matter of fact, why indeed is there even a system for knock suppression and intake air cooling called water injection at all? If Alky injection is so clearly superior as you are saying, why not just have Alcohol injection systems, and be done with it?!

I guess you guys have discovered something unique.

Im only taking this tone because Im getting a bit tired of having it spouted incessantly at me through what should have been an enlightening thread, but has turned rather acrimonious. Whats even stranger is that I havent denied any of your results. All Ive asked for are your opinions as to why you think its working better than the conventionally held belief that water predominant mixtures are preferable....again, its called Water injection, not Alcohol injection, in the field in general.

BTW, isnt it just possible that in some applications, water, because it doesnt burn, provides better control of the flame front, to help produce a nice, smooth burn?

 

[cool 84]

I don't think anyone doubts water cools the intake charge. But alky cools it much better. While water can absorb more heat it doesn't have time to do it in the intake tract. Alky evaporates quicker and absorbs more heat in the same amount of time. I've seen it with my own eyes on the charge air guage.

At some level, you just can't inject enough water without putting the fire out to kill detonation. With methanol you can inject almost as much as you want. And maybe that means cutting back on the injectors and using as a fuel but it works. It cools better than water, burns better than water lol, and cuts back detonation in the cyliner with somewhere ~130 octane. The only advantage to water is it's price and infinate "octane".

On your car, while it makes nice power, you probably aren't at a level where you would see a big difference with straight methanol. One possible explanation is with your high CR you need more in cylinder cooling which water does well.

 

[boostm3]

Cool84, that sounds like an excellent explanation. Thats one of the main reasons we add alcohol to the water to begin with. As you said, I believe its true that while the alcohol doesnt provide as much overall cooling as water does, in the short time alloted to it before its entry to the chamber, the alcohol evaporates sooner. So the alcohol component helps get those IATs down, and the water provides more control of the flame front. Thats why most of us believe a mixture to be the best in our cars. Because the Buick guys have intercoolers, their control of the flame front may not be as crucial as those of us with high CR, non intercooled engines.

BTW, for those who still think that alcohol is a better coolant than water, if you take the trouble to do the math, you will see that water's latent heat of vaporization is about twice that of Methanol!!!

Simply stated, Water's latent heat of vaporization is about 970 BTU/LB; Methanol's is 474 BTU/LB. And gasoline's is only 140 BTU/lb. The term 'Latent Heat of Vaporization' refers to the heat lost by the air when liquid water changes into vapor. Now, again, which is the better coolant ??

Ive just read of some folks using a threeway mixture of water, alcohol, and Hydrogen Peroxide! The H202 is supposed to free up O2 in the chamber. Specifically, the quote was:

'The reason for hydrogen peroxide is this: alcohol both directly and indirectly raises the engine's ability to utilize oxygen(and increases the octane rating), by suppressing the tendency to "knock," or detonate. Because hydrogen peroxide releases oxygen when compressed and/or heated, it makes a good delivery system to get more oxygen into the cylinders. Simply put, higher octane + more oxygen + knock suppression = advanced ignition timing + more power & efficiency.'...

Anybody given that a shot??

 

[R-R]

I've never heard of injecting hydrogen peroxide but the way you explain it seems like it would be acting similar to nitrous and would cause an extreme lean condition if no additional fuel was added. Or is that where the alcohol comes into play?

 

[Red Regal T]

Originally posted by boostm3
Cool84, that sounds like an excellent explanation. Thats one of the main reasons we add alcohol to the water to begin with. As you said, I believe its true that while the alcohol doesnt provide as much overall cooling as water does, in the short time alloted to it before its entry to the chamber, the alcohol evaporates sooner. So the alcohol component helps get those IATs down, and the water provides more control of the flame front. Thats why most of us believe a mixture to be the best in our cars. Because the Buick guys have intercoolers, their control of the flame front may not be as crucial as those of us with high CR, non intercooled engines.

BTW, for those who still think that alcohol is a better coolant than water, if you take the trouble to do the math, you will see that water's latent heat of vaporization is about twice that of Methanol!!!

Simply stated, Water's latent heat of vaporization is about 970 BTU/LB; Methanol's is 474 BTU/LB. And gasoline's is only 140 BTU/lb. The term 'Latent Heat of Vaporization' refers to the heat lost by the air when liquid water changes into vapor. Now, again, which is the better coolant ??

Ive just read of some folks using a threeway mixture of water, alcohol, and Hydrogen Peroxide! The H202 is supposed to free up O2 in the chamber. Specifically, the quote was:

'The reason for hydrogen peroxide is this: alcohol both directly and indirectly raises the engine's ability to utilize oxygen(and increases the octane rating), by suppressing the tendency to "knock," or detonate. Because hydrogen peroxide releases oxygen when compressed and/or heated, it makes a good delivery system to get more oxygen into the cylinders. Simply put, higher octane + more oxygen + knock suppression = advanced ignition timing + more power & efficiency.'...

Anybody given that a shot??

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