>>Have you ever tried injecting 100% methanol? You may have said it in one of your earlier posts and if so I apologize, but this may answer the question of which makes more power. Unless you can convince aquamist to test 100% methanol on a turbo car or even better a turbo buick, this debate may end in a stalemate...<<
Crazi, this is the crux of the problem. The Aquamist pumps, which are really state of the art, are NOT made to function with anything stronger than 50% methanol. The issue is some of the viton seals and valves, which will swell under the influence of a stronger cocktail.
>>You do agree though that a 50% mix is better then 100% water? <<
Im not sure. From a strictly cooling and knock suppression standpoint, from what Ive learned from the aquamist engineers, all water is the best. Here are some excerpts of what hes written me in the past you might find interesting:
"There are very few people take the trouble to looking into how to make the
best out of the water injection systems in their car, regardless what system
they install - 1s , 2c or someone else's.
As you have the system1s, I will try to help you to get the best out of the
system. As you are well aware that 1s is a fix rate system, the only two
variables are the triggering point and the nozzle size.
The engine is also a fixed output system: boost pressure, engine capacity
and predictable volumetric efficiency curve - resulting power and torque
output is fixed with a only few percent variation.
So, I will try to match your particular engine to the 1s and see if we can
get some good results without add any more cost and components to the 1s.
First of all the triggering point: unless it is absolutely necessary to
cooling the inlet at all cost, more water will cool the inlet air and at the
same time also cooling the combustion chamber and resulting in power loss
hence bogging down or in your case.
You must balance the two. Below 5psi, There may not be enough volume in the
inlet tract for the water to evaporate due to low ambient air and high
humidity. In other words the air/water mixture has reaches saturation
point - no more inlet cooling effect by water is expected. Droplet size
within the inlet tract will remain constant and the latent heat capacity
remains constant until the droplet goes into the combustion chamber.
Let the journey of the droplet continue - as soon as the inlet valve open,
prior to the expiration of hot exhaust gas, the surface of all components
inside the combustion chamber is very hot until the natural conduction
process takes place. This applies to the piston top, cylinder wall, exhaust
valves m inlet valve... Depending on the material of the components, which
is mainly comprised on aluminium and stainless steel - stainless steel is a
very slow conductor of heat compared to aluminium. Cast iron block is some
where in between.
The reason for mentioning the above journey of the water droplet, it is
often ignored or missed. The action on water plays a VERY important part due
to the speed it cools heated components and allow minimum heating up of
inlet air and as a result, air is denser and allow better cylinder filling
before compression, hence improving the volumetric efficiency of the engine
greatly.
Lets go back to your triggering point, as you are not getting any detonation
and no sign of high EGT, water may not be necessary perhaps may be some
where beyond 5 psi is better where you get better fuller cylinder filling
and more charge air being compressed before ignition.
At this point below 5 psi, you can either turn off the water of advance your
ignition timing - reclaiming some combustion pressure due to early ignition.
See attached.
The rest of the journey of the same water droplet is quite simply, as the
piston is travelling toward the TDC, the surrounding pressure and
temperature increases and the size of the drop decreases with time,
distributed amongst the air and fuel droplets - pretty evenly.
As the charge is ignited by the spark, the tiny water drop act as a buffer
zone to regulate the flame front temperature across the entire burnt
process - from the centre outwards, as peak temperature and pressure is
under control, there is little chance of the onset of detonation.
Lastly, after the combustion, the water drop will now become a single H2O
molecule as its internal energy (enthalpy + entropy) is fully spent. It is
worth noting that at the same time as the water in absorbing heat (power),
it also increase cylinder pressure : Liquid water expands approximately 2
million times in volume when it turn into steam. (Specific volume of water
is 1.002 x 10^-3 m3/kg and specific volume of steam is 206.2 m3/kg). Hence
you are not loosing that munch power nor gaining power, but you have an
engine without any unnecessary stresses at the same power level compared to
another engine without water injection.
I hope I have answered you questions (indirectly), as it is not fair for me
to ask you to do something to your engine without explaining the reason
behind it. I am not familiar with the theory behind alcohol injection, you
have already a source of fuel from your injectors and direct in-cylinder
cooling with water injection - water has INFINITE octane rating - it does
not burnt at all and auto-ignite."
Some other excerpts you might find intesting:
"...Lets come to the more interesting topic of evaporation between water and alcohol. Alcohol has a lower boiling point than water but it doesn't mean that it has better cooling property than water. All liquid evaporates above freezing point and doesn't need to wait until it reaches boiling point otherwise rainy water will never dry. Remembered your chemistry experiments?
distilling alcohol from water and alcohol uses this precise method.
Alcohol may evaporate earlier but due to the latent heat capacity, it requires twice as much to absorb the same amount of heat. If both liquid is allow to evaporate-given the same amount of surface area and mass (well atomised), water will be more effective or dropping the inlet air temperature more."
and:
"... think I have explained why alcohol will evaporate quicker but didn't directly answer the skin effect. Alcohol evaporates sooner so it just feels cooler to the nerve endings but water will have the same cooling effect but takes longer.
If you want a more sustain cooling effect water is better. If you can atomise the water fine enough, it will evaporate just as quick, there is the reason why atomised water has a better cooling effect than a single jet of water coming out of a tube - almost have little of no cooling effect....Water is a far better anti-dotonate than alcohol and it does not alter the a/f ratio.
We have had many discussion on this in the past and I don't think I want to repeat it again...."
I think this pretty much exhausts the information I have to present from aquamist. Again, to them, it boils down to this: A properly sorted out fuel system doesnt need the enrichment that an all alcohol system will provide. And, since they feel they can prove scientifically that water is the better anti detonant, they have little use for the all alcohol approach. Because of this position that they are ensconsed in, their pumps, while superior technologically, are nevertheless designed to run more than 50% methanol. If you do it, the viton and nitrile seals and valves will swell, until you go back down to below 50% meth. I think I read where more than 25% of their business comes from world rally teams, in which they have a big position, and most of those guys are using mostly water to best effect. Being the preeminent water injection resource in the world, its pretty hard to dismiss some of their findings..... The fact that many of you guys have findings to the contrary, not withstanding
>>Talk about adding fuel to the fire, ask the imagineer why propane works to reduce detonation. It isn't because it cools the charge, because it is coming in as a gas, not a liquid. It does have an octane rating of around 108, but with the ratio of propane to 91 octane gasoline it would only raise the octane less than 1 point.<<
1Bad, Doesnt nitrous, in a dry system, also come in as a gas? Is it possible that propane gas is very cold on release? Does it release gobs of O2 like Nitrous? I dont know, but if youve found it to work, there Must be a reason. I havent really heard of anyone else using it, so I think youre going to have to edyercate us about it, and why it works!
