straight water vs Methanol or a Methanol mixture

[6SENSE]

boostm3, (not sure on a Buick...yet) but I have always been a believer in water injection. I have a non-intercooled buick and the sole reason, for me, getting into alky/water injection years back was to cool the air charge. Meaning that, if done right, there really wouldnt be much of anything to burn in the combustion chambers as it was already atomized when entering the intake. My intentions were never enrichment.

Ive had a thread in the past (few months back) where I shared some of my findings experimenting with straight h2o earlier this year. Unfortuneately I had ran into some engine problems and could not further the experimenting to reach any kind of perfect tune with it. I did have great success with halting detonation. I was running plenty of boost >20psi with 0 KR. I also played around with turn on points and could successfully run the h2o coming in at as low as 2psi with minimal bog issues. I would have to look through notes as far as what size jet, etc. All I know is that results were looking very pleasing and I felt like I was on to something.

Car has been back up and running for a few weeks now so I might start playing around with the injection again soon. I need to change my tank (too small) and lines first. Plus for some reason the checkvalve I had isnt stopping the engine from sipping on the alky/h2o anymore . When things get back squared away as far as the basics I will be testing with straight denatured and with straight h2o.

Let me say that I am not completely convinced on straight water yet, and may wind up with a mix after all. All I know is that I could tell it was definately cooling the air charge better than anything I had tried before. One side effect to that denser air brings me to a question I have for you boostm3 (or anyone else that has tried straight h2o). Have you noticed a increase in boost when the h2o kicks in? I have had a drastic jump, as where maybe I was running 18psi and all of a sudden the boost is well over 20 (more like 23+). Still no KR though. Im guessing the more dense/ colder air has something to do with it. The needle on the boost gauge literaly shoots up there when the spray comes in.
Sorry for such long post.

 

[Razor]

I'm with TurboSy, water drowns the flame out.

I didnt say that it doesnt work, I'm just saying that it has been our experience that alcohol works really well by itself, and as a bonus degreases and burns.

I'll say it again, I can run 4-6 extra PSI on water alone before knock or drowning occurs. Add a couple PSI when mixed and add another 4 PSI above that figure on straight methanol. If my goals were to run 20 PSI on my car, I too would get an extra 50 RWHP on straight water..but why settle for 50 when I can get more on straight methanol.

This topic can be beat to death by all parties. Best thing is try the above and make your own decisions.

 

[boostm3]

>>Have you noticed a increase in boost when the h2o kicks in?<<

Fascinating...Nope...none at all. No matter what the mixture is, I peak at 11 psi at redline. Perhaps your experiences requires a turbo to replicate, not a centrifugal blower like mine.

One conclusion that Im coming to is that its very hard to get good, solid, reliable, and repeatable results in testing this whole water vs water/methanol mix vs methanol situation. If it werent difficult to test, wed have some definitive results already. Instead, we have some guys saying that they definitely notice a bogging when the water is used when initially triggered, yet others are able to spray as low as at jut 2 psi! Lets face it...Results are all over the place with this.

I suspect that if there is a difference, its small enough to be of a magnitude where dyno testing is the only way to discover it, as the butt dyno isnt much help here in discovering possible differences of less than 5%.... And even then, results will be misleading.. For instance, if you take a car that is running lean, and run pure methanol, youll discover you can run more boost, hence, make more power. But its because youve increased your afr ratio by well over a point when running straight methanol, not necessarily because of its cooling effect. Of course, bottom line is, you dont care why its running better, only that it is. But its important to know why its working, to realize that it wont work so well if a car is already marginally rich, and runs the same mixture. He may not realize the same gains from enrichment, although he might were he to run a water predominant system.

Because of all the variables, its probably nearly impossible to develop a one size fits all strategy across various makes and models.... Suffice it to say that for most Forced Induced applications, some mix of water and methanol in varying proportions used in an injection system will help almost everyone achieve more power. ON that surely we all can agree

 

[TurboSy]

Originally posted by boostm3
>>Have you noticed a increase in boost when the h2o kicks in?<<

Fascinating...Nope...none at all. No matter what the mixture is, I peak at 11 psi at redline. Perhaps your experiences requires a turbo to replicate, not a centrifugal blower like mine.

One conclusion that Im coming to is that its very hard to get good, solid, reliable, and repeatable results in testing this whole water vs water/methanol mix vs methanol situation. If it werent difficult to test, wed have some definitive results already. Instead, we have some guys saying that they definitely notice a bogging when the water is used when initially triggered, yet others are able to spray as low as at jut 2 psi! Lets face it...Results are all over the place with this.

I suspect that if there is a difference, its small enough to be of a magnitude where dyno testing is the only way to discover it, as the butt dyno isnt much help here in discovering possible differences of less than 5%.... And even then, results will be misleading.. For instance, if you take a car that is running lean, and run pure methanol, youll discover you can run more boost, hence, make more power. But its because youve increased your afr ratio by well over a point when running straight methanol, not necessarily because of its cooling effect. Of course, bottom line is, you dont care why its running better, only that it is. But its important to know why its working, to realize that it wont work so well if a car is already marginally rich, and runs the same mixture. He may not realize the same gains from enrichment, although he might were he to run a water predominant system.

Because of all the variables, its probably nearly impossible to develop a one size fits all strategy across various makes and models.... Suffice it to say that for most Forced Induced applications, some mix of water and methanol in varying proportions used in an injection system will help almost everyone achieve more power. ON that surely we all can agree

Not all of us use the butt dyno. I've tested the different mixtures using a data logger with a wideband output, and a 1/4 mile calculator.

From the datalogs: My truck ran an 11.7 @ 114 with 14 PSI and no injection at all. Then with the addition of water it ran 11.5 @ 118 tuned until the ignition started breaking up, and then with methanol it ran 11.2 @ 122, also tuned until knock was present or ignition problems. The 11.2 @ 122 was backed up one week later at a local track with an 11.2 @ 124.

Note: With water I can increase boost from 14 to 20 psi but the truck didn't make much more power. With methanol I can run almost 25 psi, but even at lower boost (20 psi) it makes considerable more power than water.

 

[boostm3]

Mark,

Excellent....I guess its going to be hard to refute your positive meth results, which were about double the result improvement iwth straight water. Wonder what a 50/50 mix would have done.

Were you able to test my theory that cars most benefitting from straight meth are those which run the leanest base lines?

I dont think there's much argument here that from strictly a cooling perspective, straight water wins the day. So if methanol is providing greater gains, then it stands to reason that its not due to cooling, but to something else. What is that something else? Probably fuel enrichment. Since we all agree that being too rich causes lost performance, if you happen to be on the edge of too-richness, going with straight meth will probably show a loss in performance relative to water which will do nothing to enrich the mix.

Mark, since you used a wideband, can you comment about the resulting afrs with the meth vs the water, vs the base line before using either?

Most of us forced induced M3 guys usually have afrs between 11 and 13:1 prior to the application of fluid injection. Perhaps thats why straight methanol has never been a factor in our market. However, I freely admit that its just as likely that its because aquamist is the primary supplier to our market, and as we know, thats a system which will not allow greater than a 50/50 blend to be used without pump seal damage.

Nevertheless, Im going to post your results on my bimmerforums FI forum, and see what bites.

 

[monte_383]

FWIW I run windshield washer fluid for "WI" on my WRX. The blue stuff, ~99 cents a gallon. That allows me to run a knock free 19 psi and 20 degrees timing (at peak torque, which is the lowest timing value in my map) where before I was only able to run ~17 psi and 18 degrees on straight 91 octane. As soon as the WB shows up I'm gonna have a fuel trimming party to see what the limits are. I'm still in the early stages of getting things tuned, please feel free to make suggestions for boost and timing values, in case I'm not running enough. I think most of the Buick crowd is using the Alcohol as a charge cooler and fuel, but boostm3 and myself are mainly using it as an anti-knock/ chamber cooling only. Personally I'm using it so I don't have to buy bigger injectors. -Chuck

 

[boostm3]

>>As soon as the WB shows up I'm gonna have a fuel trimming party to see what the limits are. I'm still in the early stages of getting things tuned, please feel free to make suggestions for boost and timing values, in case I'm not running enough<<

Monte, which wb are you using. Let me know how you like it. Im interested to see what results you achieve with various mixtures.

I think the buick guys are deriving more benefit from the fuel enrichment aspects than they are from teh cooling aspects, since water is known to be the more effective coolant. If they were more interested in cooling, theyd be going with water predominant systems instead. To the extent that theyre deriving more benefit from straight methanol, fuel enrichment seems to be their main concern. Systems more in need of cooling than of enrichment would perform better with water predominant systems.

 

[6SENSE]

Since I didnt have much time tuning with straight water (before engine probs), I dont know yet what was going to come out of it horsepower wise. I do recall though, that going by the "butt dyno", even though boost shot up, there didnt seem to be a big increase in power with the water. I am not sure why this is. It may be because I didnt have enough time to play with jets, etc. and I wasnt atomizing effectively? Thus dousing the flame a bit? Not sure, but I think I need to try methanol as well in my testing. Where is a good place to find some? I do think though that what most of the guys here are doing is basically running a 7th injector and enriching the fuel. If this is what works best on Buicks then great, I will be in the boat soon. However, Ive got to follow my first intentions a little longer and see what I can come up with, and that is to spray to cool the air charge. I have no intercooler and I always thought that if done right I should be able to get better results with spraying to cool the charge rather than just throwing on an intercooler (plus its a interesting challenge).

This brings me to an idea I had. I was thinking of running two pumps/nozzles. Basically two setups, one for h2o and one for ? (methanol or denatured). The water would come on early. It will be my intercooler. The alky would kick in when boost starts to get up there for power. The nozzles will be mounted facing each other in the turbo adaptor neck between my turbo and intake. Im not sure if I will have the water still going when the alky kicks in or if just alky at that point. It is something that I guess I will have to play with. This setup should be able to give me the benefit of each when needed most. And the ability to run one or the other or a mix. Im not sure of what nozzles/sizes to go with either. Ive had NOS for years, but was maybe thinking aquamist or mcmaster. The nozzle for the h20 definately has to promote atomization. The alky one?? Its there for enrichment right? So would it get the same nozzle? Whatcha think?

 

[monte_383]

boostm3... waiting for TurboXS to release their WB "kit" if you will for their UTEC piggyback computer I have in my car. Supposed to be able to datalog the WB readings with all the rest of the data at the same time. At the moment I know of no way to be able to hook up a separate WB ( say from FJO, Techedge, or a DIY) and be able to correlate the info with the current log readings I can make (I can't get the computer to do two things at once )


FYI for the other guys with WRX's on the board, I ditched the stock turbo back in december in favor of a T3/T04B. Thinking about re-doing it all again for an E-series compressor section. I want to move more air at the same pressure ratio.
-Chuck

 

[boostm3]

Buickguys, please read and comment on this paper:

http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/gaseous/GI-01.pdf

Specifically, it states,

"...Water is usually combined with methanol (methyl-alcohol) in proportions up to 50-50 to increase the volatility of the injected mixture - and therefore its cooling effect - to add part fuel instead of all water for further horsepower increase, and to eliminate the possibility of the water freezing on a cold day. Harry Ricardo, again quoting from his book, The Higher Speed Internal combustion Engine, says 'Higher percentages of methanol are not desirable because methanol, itself, is prone to pre-ignition.'

Tests made in 1971 by Ted Trevor of Crown Manufacturing showed that mixtures containing more than 50% methanol provided no additional HP gains over a 50/50 mixture. Dick Griffin confirmed that 50/50 is practical in his tests which were made several years earlier... "

 

[Crazi]

Just some off the top of my head ideas about this...

Methanol is a fuel that evaporates at a lower tempurature then water. That says to me that the combustion process will be lighting a vapor vs the mixture of different sized droplets of gasoline. Since the flame front is easier to start, shouldn't that make more power?

Water doesn't burn at all. If you inject water for cooling, it flashes to steam and the wator vapor doesn't burn maybe creating a different burn rate then straight gasoline. It also cools down the exhaust charge which is needed for turbo spool. (probably not a factor)
But I'd say water COULD take away some of the efficiency of straight gasoline. Using the same example, 200hp at 10psi on straight gas might only be 175 using water injection at the same boost. But since water allows you to turn up the boost, you now make 250hp at 15psi. If you had the proper octane gas, would you make more power with straight gas?

I am not at all well versed in the pros and cons, but these are just some reasons I THINK methanol makes more power. Also the same reason propane works so well.

 

[boostm3]

>>Water doesn't burn at all<<

Right, which means it has infinite octane

>>It also cools down the exhaust charge which is needed for turbo spool. (probably not a factor) <<

Right.. it doesnt get to that. And in a SC application, the point wouldnt even be rasied.

>>But I'd say water COULD take away some of the efficiency of straight gasoline<<

Which is why, unlike an intercooler, it doesnt make power on its own, but rather, is a tool which allows increases in boost and timing, which DO produce power

>>But I'd say water COULD take away some of the efficiency of straight gasoline<<

So does Methanol. Dont forget, Methanol only has half the calorific value of gasoline.

>>Using the same example, 200hp at 10psi on straight gas might only be 175 using water injection at the same boost<<

Dont forget thats only one side of the coin. The other is that it reduces intake temps and those in the chamber, which do contribute to more power. Combining the two factros, I think water is more or less a wash in terms of making power on its own. Its NOT as good as an intercooler for powerproduction by iteself. But as an aid to more power, its very successful.

>>If you had the proper octane gas, would you make more power with straight gas?<<

We know this to be true. Like water injection, higher octane fuel supresses detonation, and therefore more power is made if more boost and/or advanced timing is used. Dont forget that, on its own, higher octane gas wont make any more power than will water injection on its own. Both are tools to be used to allow timing and boost advances.

 

[Crazi]

Hmm I guess what still has me puzzled is whether with all things the same (timing, boost, temperature as much as possible), will race gas make more power then water injection? If you could measure the octane of the mixture of water injection and gasoline used to make the 200hp and then used the same octane of race gas, which would make more power?

I am trying to visualize this scenario with what I know about methanol and what I know about gasoline. I can see methanol making more power then water because it has half the energy of gasoline where water has none. But only, like you said several times, if you are using the methanol as an added fuel. Since methanol is used at twice (or more) the rate of gasoline in an alcohol engine, I could see clearly why the added fuel effect would increase power.

Rough example: It takes x amount of gas to support 200hp. I see it taking twice or more of that same amount of methanol to support 200hp. So if you use say, 9/10x amount of gas and replace the rest with 1/5x amount of alcohol, you get the cooling effect plus the added power of methanol being that there is more combustible mixture in the chamber.

The real question to me is, has anyone injected straight methanol and then switched to straight water without touching anything on the car? I know TurboSy did the test but what did the car run at 20psi with meth vs water? I'd say that would answer the question of which is better. But as to why, I can only assume that like I said, water doesn't add anything except detonation resistance and I would venture that it takes away from combustability.

This thread really has me curious... I need to educate myself.

 

[Crazi]

Originally posted by TurboSy
Water might be a superior fluid for knock prevention, but were missing a few variables.

First how much water can you burn before the ignition starts to break up? I'm positive I can burn at least 2-3 times more methanol without putting out the flame. Even if water twice as effective ounce for ounce, you'll still have better overall knock prevention with straight methanol Vs straight water because you can burn so much more.

Next you need to consider what makes more power, introducing say 20% more fuel and burning it efficiently will increase power, increasing 20% water will most likely decrease power, until you turn up the boost/timing, which can also be done with methanol to make even more power.

BoostM3,

This is exactly what I am refering to. 20% water will decrease power until you increase boost or timing while 20% meth will make more power at the same boost/timing I assume since it burns. Now I am also feeling that at some point, meth will detonate as well so water will be a very good choice once you get there. Correct?

 

[boostm3]

Without some good representative data to look at, we're just going to go around in circles with this.

I think maybe we need to view this as TWO different tuning aids: Water injection AND Alcohol injection. Each may be serving a different master.

For my car, its been pretty well documented that a mixture of water and alky works the best. But we do not know the best quantities. Aquamist who has done probably as much research as any on the subject is convinced by their data that Water Predominant systems work the best.

The Buick folks seem to have found in their cars that just the opposite is true. But we're looking at two issues. Water cools better, and Methanol Fuels better

My feeling is that if its fueling you need, methanol has a higher octane than pump gas, but half the energy. To get the utmost out of fueling if that is your need, nothing will beat Race Gas.

If its Cooling and KNock prevention you need, Im going with the Aquamist folks and their data

 

[Jon E]

This doesnt answer the question, but I know of a mustang with a Kenne Bell injecting straight water before the blower and was able to add 6 degrees of timing with no other changes.

You can sit here and argue about theories all you want, but 6 degrees of timing is about 50-60 hp. Who cares what it looks like on paper, just do what works the best for you.

 

[Razor]

Is the glass half full or half empty???

The reason for the injection is to be able and support higher boost levels on the 93 octane which resides inside your tank.

So to add water when 93 will suffice..thats not getting you anywhere. Now if you can run higher boost levels with the water added in, then yes you have an increase in power since water let you run a higher boost level with the same detonation control as the race gas. how much water will your engine tolerate..thats an individual thing...and hence your 54,000 dollar question.

So you tune up from base boost and add some water..there comes a time where you start increasing water to a point whereas it starts to blow out the flame(steam). You add alcohol to the mix..now the motor wakes back up again. for a couple extra PSI...you reduce water and replace with more alky..you get an additional PSI increase observing the same knock readings...

Myself and guys like TurboSy dont play with water in our mixes..I cant speak for others, and wont. You will have to find what works for your individual combination.

I can say I get a lot of slack from people who claim they have fast cars with the water issue.. When I see a 231 with a water mix or water alone in the 125+MPH 10 second range..I'll change my tune. Until then..i'll stick to my guns with straight methanol injection.. along with a bunch of other fast turbo Buick powered cars.

12-13-14 second guys..please dont chime in and say I can run an extra 2 psi on water..its the best..

Sorry, I only speak of personal results running at a dragstrip. All other opinions unless followed up with real world ET slips..are just that. Butt dyno's dont apply.

Sorry for the rant,

Peace

 

[Crazi]

I am totally in agreement boostM3, meth provides fuel and detonation supression to a point while water is the ultimate for detonation suppression. So mix both and go waste some rubber...

I also whole heartedly agree with everone who has said do what works for you. I have seen numerous mid 600 O2's on my car at 20psi with the alcohol off but no knock. After the first couple times, high 600's became my baseline. Now I don't even sweat when 600 anything comes up, I just watch for knock.

 

[1badTTA]

My car that I am building will whoop up on your car that you are building.

This thread has me laughing my butt off.

No offense boostm3, but you came on a buick board driving a bmw asking about alcohol injection (widely used by turbo buicks moreso than probably any other brand of vehicle) and you are bench racing saying that water is better for knock suppresion than alcohol. I hope you don't act the same way when you go to a bar, because if you do, you are probably used to getting whooped on.

So far, 2 board members have posted results from their experiences with water versus alcohol and both said they run best with nearly 100% methanol. You have stated that a 50/50 seems to work best for you, but also say that on paper water works best and methanol only works if you need additional fueling. You started out with a question and then tried to defend a vendors answer. I personally don't take much faith in claims of vendors otherwise my car would get over 100mpg and make around 1000hp at the tires that will never spin. So what are you really wanting to know, what will work best on your car? Just drop it off in my driveway and I will let you know in a couple months.

There have been alot of different factors brought up on why one thing works and why something else doesn't, but when you combine them all, you are bringing the variables to a whole new level that can only be calculated by testing the setup on your particular car.

And by the way, according to this thread, my ProPain injection is only making more power because it is supplying more fuel. Well I say BS to that, otherwise I would have saved some money and gotten bigger injectors.

No flames direct or indirect were intended by author.

 

[boostm3]

>>I hope you don't act the same way when you go to a bar, because if you do, you are probably used to getting whooped on<<

Then 1bad, let me clarify. If you good 'ol buick boys feel that straight moonshine is what rocks your boat, then far be it for me to tell you otherwise. But I said alot more than that, including the fact that alky injection is NOT water injection, and they have two different functions, and test as you might, none of you have the testing facilities, dollars, or resources that the primary player in the field, Aquamist, has. So when Aquamist says that water cools and suppresses knock better than any predominant alky mixture, well, to not say that carries some weight is just foolish in my book.

>>you are bringing the variables to a whole new level that can only be calculated by testing the setup on your particular car.
<<

I believe this was also my point. None of the stuff I posted, nor aquamists testing should be taken to deny anyone's test results here to the contrary. Just delineates even more that this is a very complex subject, and the jury may well be out as far as making a total, blanket recommendation is concerned. Could it really be possible that alky works better on some, and water works better on others? Isnt there a firm, scientific principle here which must carry the day?

Apparently not