Series II L67 Grand National??!!??

I would see no need for a girdle on a deep skirt cross bolted main block :)

as far as tuning, re-using the harness would be the simplest way. I would get as new of a harness as you could get though, preferrably 99+ in order for the tuning capability to be the most refined. The 97 PCM is not as friendly as far as tuning solutions.

You could also more than likely do a megasquirt setup fairly easily...
 
If you were putting this set up in a non computer controlled car... say a 72 vega. could you just grab the 97 camaro harness and computer and tune it with the OBDII?

Yes you could do exactly that. Although a 1998 Camaro/Firebird 3800 PCM would be preferred since it uses a better PCM architecture and is more common + it has more aftermarket support. 1999-02 Camaro/Firebird 3800 systems utilized a fly-by-wire throttle body, so you would want to steer clear of those.
 
Sweet! Thanks... Also should I grab a stock ls1 throttle body? Aren't they bigger? Bet i could find one of those in a junk yard too!
 
Sweet! Thanks... Also should I grab a stock ls1 throttle body? Aren't they bigger? Bet i could find one of those in a junk yard too!

Yes the LS1 TB is bigger. But the Camaro 3800 intake opening isn't bigger and can't really be bored out to match the size of a LS1 TB.
 
You would also need an adaptor plate to use it... they do have much more fun throttle response though. the stocker works fine... and fits everytime without issues. :) a definite plus.
 
the head design is similar to the stage 2... anyone know if the manifold from a stage 2 would work on a series 2? just a thought....

also does anyone know what kind of rpm the guys making 850 plus are turning?
 
the head design is similar to the stage 2... anyone know if the manifold from a stage 2 would work on a series 2? just a thought....

also does anyone know what kind of rpm the guys making 850 plus are turning?


Sorry, not even close.
 
Simular yes, but Dave's right. You'll need to make an intake to work on a RWD block. The water passeges on the block to the head will work but there's no intake out there that's been designed so far. It's a shame too because the Series II heads are much better flowing than the stock RWD heads.
 
Subscribed!!Very interesting!I just did a motor in a 98 Firebird and have a complete uncut perfect engine harness if anyone needs one.:cool:
 
Simular yes, but Dave's right. You'll need to make an intake to work on a RWD block. The water passeges on the block to the head will work but there's no intake out there that's been designed so far. It's a shame too because the Series II heads are much better flowing than the stock RWD heads.
The 95-98 F-body intake could be made to match with adapter plates seeing as the lower deck height of the Series II motor means there is room to insert something inbetween the intake and the heads. For a traditional LC2 intake you'd need new flange plates and probably redesign the water crossover.
 
The 95-98 F-body intake could be made to match with adapter plates seeing as the lower deck height of the Series II motor means there is room to insert something inbetween the intake and the heads. For a traditional LC2 intake you'd need new flange plates and probably redesign the water crossover.

I've been thinking about it myself and have the parts here to do a mock up. Basically what I'm gonna do is cut the stock intake apart and use the head matching area and using the center to make up the base of it. Shouldn't be that hard to do and the differences between the FWD Series II and RWD blocks is 1/8" in relation to the location in the heads side to side. the big issue will be the difference in deck height and the spread between the cylinders. I'll have to do some measuring to see how much it is and since I've got both blocks here I'll just see when I get the chance to.:biggrin:
 
The 95-98 F-body intake could be made to match with adapter plates seeing as the lower deck height of the Series II motor means there is room to insert something inbetween the intake and the heads. For a traditional LC2 intake you'd need new flange plates and probably redesign the water crossover.
Intake ports are NOT in the same location on LC2 heads vs. 3800 Series 2 or 3 heads.
 
Intake ports are NOT in the same location on LC2 heads vs. 3800 Series 2 or 3 heads.
Are you reffering to this as in the cam won't work or the intake ports won't line up between an LC2 intake and Series II/III heads?

The cam would be a pretty big deal but trying to put the F-body intake on the Series II/III heads shouldn't be an issue if that's the only problem. Remember we are using an LC2 type block so the on vs off center relationship between the Series II/III and LC2 would be nullified.
 
Are you reffering to this as in the cam won't work or the intake ports won't line up between an LC2 intake and Series II/III heads?

The cam would be a pretty big deal but trying to put the F-body intake on the Series II/III heads shouldn't be an issue if that's the only problem. Remember we are using an LC2 type block so the on vs off center relationship between the Series II/III and LC2 would be nullified.

The heads are the issue. The valve layout on the Series 2/3 heads is I-E-I-E-I-E which differs significantly from the LC2 heads. This means the LC2 intake ports won't line up with the intake ports in the Series 2/3 heads; not even close. Yes the cam is also different because of this, but getting a custom cam made wouldn't be difficult at all compared to trying to get an LC2 intake to work with these heads.

So using the stock LC2 intake is NOT an option. You would need a custom intake fabbed up to be able to use the Series 2 or 3 heads on an LC2 block - period. But why go to that amount of trouble and cost? Why not just use the better (in my opinion) 3800 Series 2/3 block too? Then this would also allow you to use a better (again, in my opinion) 4L60-E trans and one OBD2 PCM to control it all...

-ryan
 
The heads are the issue. The valve layout on the Series 2/3 heads is I-E-I-E-I-E which differs significantly from the LC2 heads. This means the LC2 intake ports won't line up with the intake ports in the Series 2/3 heads; not even close. Yes the cam is also different because of this, but getting a custom cam made wouldn't be difficult at all compared to trying to get an LC2 intake to work with these heads.

So using the stock LC2 intake is NOT an option. You would need a custom intake fabbed up to be able to use the Series 2 or 3 heads on an LC2 block - period. But why go to that amount of trouble and cost? Why not just use the better (in my opinion) 3800 Series 2/3 block too? Then this would also allow you to use a better (again, in my opinion) 4L60-E trans and one OBD2 PCM to control it all...

-ryan
The cam sounds like Stage II (not surprising considering how well that design worked and how simple many of the changes were if you were making new castings), but I'm not a Stage II expert so maybe the I's and E's are backwards inside of each pair.

To address, not really answer, your second statement. My main reasons would be 1 motor mounts, 2 4L60E doesn't enjoy a lot of popularity here and I doubt it's because of the E part, 3 the Metric 60 bellhousing is a bit of a limitation, 4 the limited availablity of the F-body RWD engines. The OBD2 PCM is an interesting arguement but I've used one to run my LC2 based 4.1 and it works though is in need of refinement. The major hang up there is the need for adapting the cam sensor, TPS, and IAC to work with the old hardware, electronically it works great and I can have a 4L60E that way. Interestingly enough on that subject I'm working with someone who reverse engineered a 4L80E controller to run a 4T65E to let the L67 PCM control a 4L80E.

Again my opinions and experience. I'd consider the heads only for my application since I'm running a 4.1L block and already have to make custom headers and potentially an intake (stock LC2 works but it's not a good packaging solution) to fit the '64 Riviera engine bay.
 
The cam sounds like Stage II (not surprising considering how well that design worked and how simple many of the changes were if you were making new castings), but I'm not a Stage II expert so maybe the I's and E's are backwards inside of each pair.

IIRC, on the LC2 heads, the valve arrangement is E-I-E-I-I-E or something like that. Basically you have two intake ports that sit right next to each other on each head; but on the S2 and S3 3800 heads, they are evenly spaced. That's why the LC2 intakes can't be made to work. I don't know anything about the Stage2 LC2 stuff so I can't offer any insight there.


To address, not really answer, your second statement. My main reasons would be
-1 motor mounts,
-2 4L60E doesn't enjoy a lot of popularity here and I doubt it's because of the E part,
-3 the Metric 60 bellhousing is a bit of a limitation,
-4 the limited availablity of the F-body RWD engines. The OBD2 PCM is an interesting arguement but I've used one to run my LC2 based 4.1 and it works though is in need of refinement. The major hang up there is the need for adapting the cam sensor, TPS, and IAC to work with the old hardware, electronically it works great and I can have a 4L60E that way. Interestingly enough on that subject I'm working with someone who reverse engineered a 4L80E controller to run a 4T65E to let the L67 PCM control a 4L80E.

To address what you said above:

1) Who is running stock rubber motor mounts anymore (for those who are making a lot of power)? Chances are if you are making a lot of power in an LC2 app, you've had to replace your stock rubber mounts because of their poor design not being able to hold up to the massive torque our turbo engines produce in favor of an aftermarket mount that will hold up. Sure, it is a drop-in replacement for the stock rubber mount, but it is still an aftermarket/custom part. Custom mounts can easily be made for the 3800 Series 2/3 engines so I don't think that it is AS big of an issue. I would consider bigger issues to be exhaust, wiring, and keeping your A/C functioning after the conversion is done. The Camaro/Firebird 3800 A/C compressor won't clear the crossmember in the GN/G-Body cars if left in the stock location on the 3800 engine UNLESS you modify the crossmember. I do think there's a better way, but this would involve using a different compressor and a redesign of the assy. belt drive system used on the 3800 engine.

2) The 4L60-E has FAR more support in the automotive aftermarket these days because the LSx community. I can't say it is a more supported platform than the 2004R, but it sure ranks up there. And the "E" part is what I like about it. No more problems with getting the transmission to shift WHEN you want it to in every gear (unlike governor-controlled transmissions).

3) Why is the 60 deg bellhousing a limitation? If you are referring to not being able to run a fullsize torque converter (physical size), who is running one in a "hot" LC2-2004R buildup anyway? Don't those usually get swapped out in favor of a smaller diameter, aftermarket stall converter in most custom builds already? No offense to anyone on here but I consider the BOP bellhousing to be a limitation. Transmissions that are directly compatible with that bellhousing have not been in production for years. And trying to find a GOOD 2004R that has the good GN valvebody is next to impossible (assuming you don't already have one).

4) 4L60-E's with the "60 deg" bellhousing were NOT only used in the Camaros/Firebirds. They were used in every S10 and Sonoma that came with a 2.2/2200 4cyl engine, and those were very widely produced. (They were used at least up thru 2003 model year with this "60 deg" bellhousing, possibly newer).

Again my opinions and experience. I'd consider the heads only for my application since I'm running a 4.1L block and already have to make custom headers and potentially an intake (stock LC2 works but it's not a good packaging solution) to fit the '64 Riviera engine bay.

Believe me, I wish there were a way to use 3800 Series 2/3 heads on an LC2 block. Then you guys would have another choice for better flowing heads. But like I said, the problem is going to be with the intake. And custom fabbed aluminum intakes are not cheap. I figure by the time you got an intake manifold and exhaust made to use 3800 S2/3 heads on your LC2 block, you probably could have saved some money by just getting a set of already available aftermarket heads for the LC2 which already have exhaust and intake options available as well.

-ryan
 
Darth Fiero - this was a question i have been goin back an forth with in my head . Obvioiusly there are two diff 4l60 trans, one for a v8 and one for the 4/v6. Since the series II cant use the v8 version,it must run the 4/6 version. Here is my issue, will the 4/6 version be strong enough to support a modded l36/67? Can the trans be built like the v8 version or are u SOL when it come to needing more power?
 
Depending on years there all internally the same.All the V8 versions have bolt on bellhousings.The 60 deg bell are cast into the rest of the transmission case.You can upgrade any 700/4l60. from Billet shafts to 5 pinion planets and everything in between.At the shop I work at we build up to 1000 hp units.But how long one of those lasts all depends lol
 
The 98+ (and possibly 97 too) F-body 4L60E has a detachable bellhousing and is said to be a V8 unit with a different bell. Either way you could combine an F-body LS1 4L60E with a 3800 bell and have the same unit.

To respond to Darth, the limitation I see with the RWD L36 is not the transmission (above is just the 4L60E, there are plenty of ways around that) it's the cable throttle intake used only 95-98. Since the rest of the engine is largely interchangable with the FWD stuff and the transmission bellhousing is used by everything from the Jeep/Dodge 2.5L I4 to the F-body 3.4L. Not all of these transmissions is overly durable in stock form but can be upgraded.
I also am in favor of E-series transmissions but I'm jumping to a 4L80E since I value durability over efficiency. I'll have to think on this since I'm in need of hood clearance and the "breadbox" F-body L36 intake would help with that and I'm suffering from lack of really well fitting headers already. Definately good discussions here.

P.S. I'm in favor of the Series II/III engines for lots of applications so this isn't a poopoo on that motor at all.
 
To respond to Darth, the limitation I see with the RWD L36 is the cable throttle intake used only 95-98.

You are correct. But a throttle body adapter plate could easily be made to allow the use of a cable-operated throttle body on 99-02 L36 F-body intakes which originally had the DBW (drive by wire) throttle body.
 
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