Series II L67 Grand National??!!??
- Thread starter xXch0dyXx
- Start date
DoubleD
Too many Regals
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
Yes you would have an extra set of injector holes. easy enough to swap to the other head or close up the ones in the intake. or just put direct port nitrous nozzles in the extras.
if the motor ever goes in my TR it will be a tough decision to run another LC2 or the 3800SII...
if the motor ever goes in my TR it will be a tough decision to run another LC2 or the 3800SII...
Or.. an LSX swap
I do like the idea of keeping a 3.8 six in the car though
That has better valve-train, etc..Darth Fiero
3800 Series II Turbo
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2003
Nobody sells headers for this conversion that I am aware of. Dave over at TripleEdgePerformance that did the swap this topic is about custom made the headers for that car, but I don't think you'd be able to get him to make a mail-order set for you. I could make you a set if you brought the car to my shop (with the engine in) and scheduled it in for an appointment.
-ryan
i just got my GN. i has a small block in it. itll stay like that until body and interior are done, then ill pick me up a 3800 and build the turbo v6 on the side. it'll be a little while tho. but i like this idea i think i'll try going this route. maybe someone will make turbo headers then and even a wiring harness i could buy
Darth Fiero
3800 Series II Turbo
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2003
I would be happy to custom build a harness for you as well but I would need the car here (with engine in) in order to do it.
I know this post is kinda old and Ive been thinking about this conversion for awhile and wanna make sure I get my facts straight.... I should get a block from a V6 camaro so i have the chevy bell housing pattern and then the heads and crank and rods from a supercharged fwd car cause they are heavy duty, slap in some forged pistons the camaro manifold and a turbo and let er' rip? sounds like a bad ass way to make serious power on junk yard parts! someone let me know if i "got it right" and what kind of power i can expect if i put the money into a good turbo, or if im missing anything!
thanks!!!!
thanks!!!!
DoubleD
Too many Regals
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
You could also just grab all the attachments from the camaro including the pan, top end etc, and get a supercharged block. you'll be using the heads from the camaro as well, not the supercharged car. The motor is also lower compression. Don't necessarily need the pistons either. stock will hold just fine. up to about 600-700 hp maybe more. You'll also have to figure out some sort of different fuel rail, because the fuel pressure regulator has to be boost referenced.
expect around 500 with a good turbo and a decent cam and good tune. the last part is key.
expect around 500 with a good turbo and a decent cam and good tune. the last part is key.
Turbo1dr
9 Sec Wanna-Be
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Those extra set of injector holes could possible be made to accept 2 injectors per cylinder. With some more custom fabrication you could have a dual fuel system that uses 87 octane in one fuel rail and 116 octane in the other....
wich harness should i use? and what controller to tune? I like the dual fuel system but wouldnt it be easier to use the second set for meth? How much power do you guys thing the stock bottom end will take before you start kickin rods? If the camaro block still has the FWD pattern what trans is behind those things? If you wanna run a different trans we gotta sped 500 bucks on that adapter set up? or is there a better aka cheaper way?
I like my cars like I like my women; cheap fast and if I break em I can go to any junk yard and get more for dirt cheap haha
I like my cars like I like my women; cheap fast and if I break em I can go to any junk yard and get more for dirt cheap haha
Turbo1dr
9 Sec Wanna-Be
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
It would be more complicated to use Meth as the second fuel system. Why? Because then you would have to make the entire fuel system compatible with Meth and you would have to use a after market ECM to control the different sizes of injectors that would be required. With 87/116 all you do is use the same size injectors in both fuel rails and use the stock ECM to control them.
The above holds true only if you want the dual fuel system to have automatic switching capabilities. If not, then you would have to change chips and a manually switch the fuel systems over to meth. Besides, doing it "automatically" allows you to run 20+ pounds of boost at the instant drop of the throttle...when-ever you want...like when that "other" guy wants to race you...THEN you would always be ready...
With 116, you don't have to worry about detonating the engine because you will always have enough octane to the engine INSTANTLY...no more tuning right up to the point of detonation (like with pump gas or pump gas/alky mix).Of course, the absolute easiest way is to just plug the second set of injector holes and use alcohol injection and be limited to the amount of boost you can run.
Darth Fiero
3800 Series II Turbo
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2003
3800 Series 2 engines all have cast rods in them just like your GN motors. The 3800 Series 3 engines came with powdered metal (aka: PM) rods (some early production 3800 Series 3 engines still had cast rods). The word in the community is the cast rods are good to 600hp and beyond and I haven't heard much different about the PM rods.
As with anything else, the no.1 killer of connecting rods is excessive RPM. Size your turbo right and you'll never need to rev it past 6000 rpm to make good power. Some guys have revved these engines past 6700 rpm but I really see no need to do that on a turbocharged setup.
The 3800 Series 2 and 3 engines all have the same FWD GM bellhousing (same as 4cyl [exc Quad 4], 2.8/3.1/3.4 V6, etc). So your 2004R trans will not bolt up to it. The 700R4 and 4L60-E that came with a 4cyl or V6 (except 4.3L) in the S-10's and F-bodies will bolt right up to these engines. The OBD2 PCM from the 1998 Camaro/Firebird 3800 can be tuned to work with a Turbo and will also control the 4L60-E. The only thing you need from the Camaro is the flywheel/flexplate, oil pan, mounts, and intake. You can use the heads, but they are the same as any other FWD non-supercharged head which may be easier to find. The SC versions of these engines have thicker/stronger connecting rods, pistons, and piston pins. The N/A versions of these engines got lighter duty versions of these parts and also higher static compression due to the less dish in the piston. SC and N/A versions of these engines got the same cast crank, but the balancing is different due to the difference in weight of the pistons/pins/rods. All Series 2 and 3 engines are externally balanced, and the amount of counter-balance built into the flywheel/flexplate and balancer is different between SC and N/A engines. So if you mix and match parts (use N/A parts on an engine with SC internals), getting a rotating assembly balance job done would be a very good idea. Some people have been able to make some good power on the N/A internals with boost and that higher compression (9.4:1), but a lot of people have melted down those engines as well.
The SC's parts being stronger will put up with more abuse (and also the lower compression of 8.5:1 is more boost friendly); but there is still a problem with stock piston design. GM designed these pistons to be more emissions friendly by moving the top ring land very close to the top of the piston (on both SC and N/A pistons). This creates a problem where the top ring is exposed to more heat vs. a performance design + the factory ring gaps are quite tight. So if you are going to use stock parts, I recommend you file the rings to give yourself more gap at the very least - this will help some but still does not fix the design problem of the piston. The stock pistons are cast for both SC and N/A but the SC pistons were coated.
If I was going to build one of these engines up for use with a serious amount of boost, I would throw away the stock pistons and replace them with forged units from a good piston manufacturer and properly set up all the clearances. I feel the stock rods would be fine for what most people would be doing with them and the only thing I would change is all fasteners - replace with ARP brand stuff. Nothing wrong with the stock cast crank or stock cross-bolted main caps either. The stock head gaskets work well too, but I have heard bad things about FelPro head gaskets on these engines so you may want to steer clear of those. There is also no reason to do anything with the factory oil pump. It is a gerotor type pump that puts out more than enough volume and pressure than you would probably ever need. All the turbo builds I have done using these engines produce a minimum of 40psi of oil pressure (full synthetic 10W30 oil @ hot idle) and usually produce 70-80psi of oil pressure above 2000 rpm.
About the only other bad thing I can think of with these engines is the factory timing chain. It is quite small so you can't really use a big cam that requires heavy valve springs with it. And all of the aftermarket chains I have seen that are stronger require you to remove the balance shaft which will require you to plug some oiling holes in the block. I have seen some aftermarket timing chains for these engines go on a bit tight which wipes out the front cam gear quickly - so make sure you check yours if you change it and make sure it isn't too tight.
-ryan
As with anything else, the no.1 killer of connecting rods is excessive RPM. Size your turbo right and you'll never need to rev it past 6000 rpm to make good power. Some guys have revved these engines past 6700 rpm but I really see no need to do that on a turbocharged setup.
The 3800 Series 2 and 3 engines all have the same FWD GM bellhousing (same as 4cyl [exc Quad 4], 2.8/3.1/3.4 V6, etc). So your 2004R trans will not bolt up to it. The 700R4 and 4L60-E that came with a 4cyl or V6 (except 4.3L) in the S-10's and F-bodies will bolt right up to these engines. The OBD2 PCM from the 1998 Camaro/Firebird 3800 can be tuned to work with a Turbo and will also control the 4L60-E. The only thing you need from the Camaro is the flywheel/flexplate, oil pan, mounts, and intake. You can use the heads, but they are the same as any other FWD non-supercharged head which may be easier to find. The SC versions of these engines have thicker/stronger connecting rods, pistons, and piston pins. The N/A versions of these engines got lighter duty versions of these parts and also higher static compression due to the less dish in the piston. SC and N/A versions of these engines got the same cast crank, but the balancing is different due to the difference in weight of the pistons/pins/rods. All Series 2 and 3 engines are externally balanced, and the amount of counter-balance built into the flywheel/flexplate and balancer is different between SC and N/A engines. So if you mix and match parts (use N/A parts on an engine with SC internals), getting a rotating assembly balance job done would be a very good idea. Some people have been able to make some good power on the N/A internals with boost and that higher compression (9.4:1), but a lot of people have melted down those engines as well.
The SC's parts being stronger will put up with more abuse (and also the lower compression of 8.5:1 is more boost friendly); but there is still a problem with stock piston design. GM designed these pistons to be more emissions friendly by moving the top ring land very close to the top of the piston (on both SC and N/A pistons). This creates a problem where the top ring is exposed to more heat vs. a performance design + the factory ring gaps are quite tight. So if you are going to use stock parts, I recommend you file the rings to give yourself more gap at the very least - this will help some but still does not fix the design problem of the piston. The stock pistons are cast for both SC and N/A but the SC pistons were coated.
If I was going to build one of these engines up for use with a serious amount of boost, I would throw away the stock pistons and replace them with forged units from a good piston manufacturer and properly set up all the clearances. I feel the stock rods would be fine for what most people would be doing with them and the only thing I would change is all fasteners - replace with ARP brand stuff. Nothing wrong with the stock cast crank or stock cross-bolted main caps either. The stock head gaskets work well too, but I have heard bad things about FelPro head gaskets on these engines so you may want to steer clear of those. There is also no reason to do anything with the factory oil pump. It is a gerotor type pump that puts out more than enough volume and pressure than you would probably ever need. All the turbo builds I have done using these engines produce a minimum of 40psi of oil pressure (full synthetic 10W30 oil @ hot idle) and usually produce 70-80psi of oil pressure above 2000 rpm.
About the only other bad thing I can think of with these engines is the factory timing chain. It is quite small so you can't really use a big cam that requires heavy valve springs with it. And all of the aftermarket chains I have seen that are stronger require you to remove the balance shaft which will require you to plug some oiling holes in the block. I have seen some aftermarket timing chains for these engines go on a bit tight which wipes out the front cam gear quickly - so make sure you check yours if you change it and make sure it isn't too tight.
-ryan
Will this block adapter work to convert the series II to the chevy pattern?
Chevy 4 and V6 to TH350 Adapter Plates
Are the series II bottom ends stronger than the stock 109s? There is a guy on here running a stock 109 bottom end with forged pistons running 9.6s on pump gas and alky... can these motors take more abuse than that?
"Of course, the absolute easiest way is to just plug the second set of injector holes and use alcohol injection and be limited to the amount of boost you can run."
can you run more boost on alky injection or on race gas with the set up you have? whats the max boost for either of these?
__________________
Chevy 4 and V6 to TH350 Adapter Plates
Are the series II bottom ends stronger than the stock 109s? There is a guy on here running a stock 109 bottom end with forged pistons running 9.6s on pump gas and alky... can these motors take more abuse than that?
"Of course, the absolute easiest way is to just plug the second set of injector holes and use alcohol injection and be limited to the amount of boost you can run."
can you run more boost on alky injection or on race gas with the set up you have? whats the max boost for either of these?
__________________
I found it, and it looks NICE but for 500 bucks vs 75 Ill deal with "fitment issues" lol
Darth Fiero
3800 Series II Turbo
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2003
I do know of guys in the 3800 community who have pushed these Series 2 and 3 blocks beyond 9 sec 1/4 mile passes with the stock bottom end (crank / main caps / blocks). I don't recall of anyone ever using a girdle on one of these engines either.
