Saw the new GTO Cavalier today

[myclone]

Originally posted by AsphaltAnihil8r
THEY SHOULD HAVE MADE THE PONTIAC G-8

What he said...

The new GTO has a nice drive line and is at least a step in the right direction for the corporate tards at GM but it still looks awful to me. Then again whadda I know as I race a pick up truck

 

[toofastforyou]

Raven, all that I wanted to say is that I personnally like the new GTO...nothing more, nothing less... and I fully recognize that everyone is entitled to it's own opinions and tastes...
By the way, 1978 was the last model year for the MustangII...
'bye,
Claude

 

[ViciousV6]

It's like settling for an ugly chick because she's rich.

I think I nearly pissed myself, on that one!

 

[Raven]

No biggie

No problem Claude. Hey, this is JUST a debate here about opinions right?

When it comes to opinions, nobody is right or wrong (well, of course I'm never wrong! ) so it doesn't matter.

Facts are something different but here, we're just talkin' cars and smack so it's no big deal!

(Pst... don't tell anyone but I DO love the Holden's drivetrain. And, had they badged the car with at least Pontiac's emblems and put a little more 'excitement' [pardon the pun] in the looks department, I probably would have been happier with the overall car. I just think GM is robbing a grave so to speak by calling it a GTO. Hell, I would have been even happier if they had put a Chevy emblem on it and called it the new Impala SS!)

 

[Little6pack]

Originally posted by CM_Ls1
you take the modern coupe styling, and you find the cheapest pos FWD car that has a coupe style and you blurt out crap that its the same... even though nothing about them is the same.

does the Merc AMG CLK55 look like a cavalier also ?

aNY WAY YOU SLICE IT they all look alike YOO HOO - ARE YOU WITH ME?

I AM TALKING LOOKS HERE..

I KNOW THE PERFORMANCE IS THERE IN THE NEW GTO!
i NEVER SAID IT WAS A DOG AS FAR A PERFORMANCE!

IT IS ONLY A DOG IN STYLE! CAPISH!

 

[TRiv]

Re: No biggie

Originally posted by Raven
I just think GM is robbing a grave so to speak by calling it a GTO. Hell, I would have been even happier if they had put a Chevy emblem on it and called it the new Impala SS!)

Exactly the whole point, while you can really give any name to any car ( or person, place, or thing for that matter), giving names is a very special and important part of our lives, in all cultures,societies, groups, etc. I said much the same on a previous new GTO discussion, my choice was GM could have named it Chevelle SS, the styling would still be subjective but the heratige would be correct.

Raven, do you go to the Norwalk tri power Pontiac show? Will be interesting to hear comments there on the Holden, I am sure will see them running. Too bad we probably won't see Arnie Beswick running, to those who don't know, this guy is in his early seventies, been drag racing most of them, and until he was burned in an engine fire last year, was running a 64 GTO called "Tameless Tiger" Pontiac powered running mid 7's. Looks like a real 64 GTO with a weird tiger paint scheme, and while 7's are'nt the hottest these days, seeing a 70's+ guy doing a completely smokey burnout over halfway down the track before a run was pretty wild. He's getting better.

 

[Raven]

No, I haven't had the chance to go to the Tripower show but would love to do that! When is it?

I saw Beswick's Tiger a couple of years ago at the US Nats in Indy. You're right - he did an incredible burnout and put on a great show!

Glad to hear he's doing ok now after that accident.

Let me know the details on the Tripower show and what day/days you may be going, ok? Maybe we could hook up and talk Poncho/GTO! I'll also search Norwalk's site for info.

 

[RobR]

Raven, the 64 wasn't near as fast as the new GTO. My Dad's first brand new car was a 65 Tri Power 4spd. With less than 100 miles on the clock, he ripped off a 14.7. His was one of the quickest around because most were in the 15's. I know some of it is he knew how to shift, still does , and he knew not to take it 5K.

He did the Royal Pontiac build up and went 14.1. He put M&H's on and dipped into the 13's. The car eventually went mid 12's after quite a few mods.

New GTO's are solidly in the 13's. Low 13's with a good driver.

 

[TRiv]

Originally posted by Raven


Let me know the details on the Tripower show and what day/days you may be going, ok? Maybe we could hook up and talk Poncho/GTO! I'll also search Norwalk's site for info.

August 6-8, I always go on Sunday, seems to be best day, the show and racing has never been a disappointment, pit side completely full of Pontiacs preping for race, spectator side full of show cars, have to keep in touch. Going to the Buick raceday May 2, never been to that one.

 

[Raven]

Originally posted by RobR
Raven, the 64 wasn't near as fast as the new GTO.
New GTO's are solidly in the 13's. Low 13's with a good driver.

Sorry but I have to completely disagree with both statements (but not about what your dad was able to run - I wasn't there). I watched a '64 T/P owned by an older brother of friend of mine who still owns the car rip off a 13.4 bone stock on stock tires. It was a 4-speed car that he bought brand new and it was unmolested entirely. The car had about 2200 miles on it when i watched him run it at the strip.

I was SO very much into the '64 GTO back then. I remember a Road and Track report where they tested the car (on stock tires) at 14.1 @ 104 mph. 104 mph is a solid VERY low 13 second ET with traction and/or a better driver! Other mags had the car easily in mid/low 13's.

And no, very few 2004's are in mid 13's - some are high 13's with most hitting low 14's. I've seen it myself.

Give me a Pure Stock '64 GTO 389 Tri-Power with today's tires and I'll walk the Holden any day of the week. Give the same car the Royal Bobcat Treatment and it'll go 12's.

 

[CM_Ls1]

hmmm raven , did you know that the Monaro took styling cues directly from the GTO ?

straight from holden's website-

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/jsp/chooseavehicle/popups/monarohistory/hq.jsp

 

[CM_Ls1]

Originally posted by Raven

Lastly, I'm 50 years old (how old are you?). I grew up with the GTO's, the Hemi Cuda's, the Chevelle SS's and all the others. I've most likely owned and driven more actual musclecars than you could ever dream about so I know - based upon actual seat time at the track - what those cars will do. I'm not bragging, I have simply had a lot of time in those cars over the years, not just read magazines or surfed the web sites.

I also grew up with muscle cars , same as you, so i know your passion.

But i grew up with just as many dude, just from a different part of the world..

we had and still have Falcons (which by the way took cues from mustangs & torinos)

we had monaros ( which took style from the GTO & the toronado)

we had Chryslers which are famous for their in-line 6 HEMI's and chargers

so don't assume i only read websites and magazines .

cheers !

 

[Raven]

Originally posted by CM_Ls1
hmmm raven , did you know that the Monaro took styling cues directly from the GTO ?

straight from holden's website-

http://www.holden.com.au/www-holden/jsp/chooseavehicle/popups/monarohistory/hq.jsp

Interesting site. But wouldn't you agree that "taking a cue" is not the same thing as imbedding the soul?

That's where GM and Holden both missed. Yes, it's a great car.

But no, it's not a GTO. It could be ANYthing, just pick a badge and slap it on. Like I said earlier, call it a 442; a Chevelle SS, a Camaro... well, why don't we even just call it a Plymouth Roadrunner? Same difference.

It's not built by Pontiac, it wasn't designed by Pontiac, and therefore, it simply isn't a Pontiac.

And no matter how much someone may try to slice and dice and juke and jive, "If it ain't a Pontiac, it ain't a GTO".

It's a plasticky car shaped like a soap bar but with a good drivetrain, all duded up with emblems and logos to make one believe it's a GTO.

The new GTO is kind of like Cyber-sex - it might feel good for the moment, it might even look good - but it's all in your mind and NOTHING like the real thing.

THAT is precisely GM's problem - they are imitators and cloners.

GM - Goofy Management

 

[CM_Ls1]

Originally posted by Raven


It's a plasticky car shaped like a soap bar but with a good drivetrain, all duded up with emblems and logos to make one believe it's a GTO.

The new GTO is kind of like Cyber-sex - it might feel good for the moment, it might even look good - but it's all in your mind and NOTHING like the real thing.

THAT is precisely GM's problem - they are imitators and cloners.

GM - Goofy Management

i see your constructive arguments have been broken down to petty insults... at first you thought i wouldn't have anything to counter your points, but after seeing the holden website all you could say was "interesting" heh...

say what you want, but its the goofy GM management that turned their bread and butter cars into weak fwd cars, its up to holden to fix that, and not only pontiac but many GM brands will use the new zeta platform (icluding buick), but i suppose you already knew that, since by your own words " im never wrong" pffft

 

[Raven]

"Petty insults"? Who did I insult? I mentioned NO one by name or otherwise and you yourself said, "Its the goofy GM management that turned their bread and butter cars into weak fwd cars, its up to holden to fix that" which was in total agreement with my "GM = Goofy Management".

So who did I insult? No one. Calling the Holden website interesting insulted you? And, platform sharing of the Zeta structure within GM by even Buick suddenly makes the Holden a real Pontiac but disagreeing with all this becomes 'petty insults'?

Oh, now c'mon! Quit! Stop making me laugh, my sides are hurting!!!

Nothing I have said is any different in spirit to what you and the few who think the current Holden is a Pontiac GTO have said. If you can't see debate for what it is (just debate about subjective views) and choose to accept tongue in cheek disagreement as a 'petty insult', then I truly apologize. Well, sort of... Ok, not really!

I thought you knew where I was coming from.

And the "at first you thought i wouldn't have anything to counter your points" was way off base dude! I didn't THINK it, I KNEW it! You haven't 'countered' anything!

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!

Lighten up, ok? It appears from some of the info in your post that you either live in Australia or grew up there so that's why you're so defensive of Holden? That's ok!

But dude - get over it! You can be wrong if you want, but the Holden is NOT a GTO! It will ALWAYS and FOREVER be a Holden with a GTO badge on it.

Have a great day!

 

[Sinister86]

Hey guys, I had to chime in on a discussion as ongoing as this one! As an industrial design student, I can understand where everyone is coming from in their opinions of the body of the new GTO. In my opinion however, I feel this resurgence of retro is becoming a bit played out. Everyone knows the beetle ushered in the era of new retro, but what the big three (and GM especially because they're my fav) need to be doing is adding subtle cues like seen on the new Buick concept convertable (velite?) The blatent copies of past designs such as te new Mustang just don't tickle my fancy. Don't get me wrong, it is a beautiful car, but if the automakers want to generate a new wave of enthusiasts that will stay with a marque for years to come, as many of you have stayed loyal to the general, then they need to make cars that will be iconic in 35 years like the musclecars of yesteryear. Reverting to past designs conjures memories for all you oldtimers but us younguns would like memories of their own. (like my gn) Cars like the GXP and northstar equipped GP are certainly a step in the right direction!

 

[RobR]

Originally posted by Raven
Sorry but I have to completely disagree with both statements (but not about what your dad was able to run - I wasn't there). I watched a '64 T/P owned by an older brother of friend of mine who still owns the car rip off a 13.4 bone stock on stock tires. It was a 4-speed car that he bought brand new and it was unmolested entirely. The car had about 2200 miles on it when i watched him run it at the strip.

I was SO very much into the '64 GTO back then. I remember a Road and Track report where they tested the car (on stock tires) at 14.1 @ 104 mph. 104 mph is a solid VERY low 13 second ET with traction and/or a better driver! Other mags had the car easily in mid/low 13's.

And no, very few 2004's are in mid 13's - some are high 13's with most hitting low 14's. I've seen it myself.

Give me a Pure Stock '64 GTO 389 Tri-Power with today's tires and I'll walk the Holden any day of the week. Give the same car the Royal Bobcat Treatment and it'll go 12's.

Have to disagree with you as Pops had many records/trophys with the GTO and they didn't run that fast bone stock. 99-100mph is all they would run stock. You can't go by magazines, especially fron the 60's as they all were "press" cars. The new GTO will run 104mph with a 6spd. Its making more power and weighs about the same if not more than the original. Granted a lot of people can't drive and those are the ones that everybody sees and says that is what ALL will run.

There is one around here that will run 13.3-4 all day long, full weight and no mods. He runs a low 1.9 short time and that is the key. Most are in the 2.3+ range and that is easily over .5 second right there. Plus slow shifting will add more.

I ran 13.5 bone stock in my 96 WS6 and used to get people saying I had this and that. Magazine's were getting 14.0 or worse. If you can drive and launch a 6spd car, it'll perform.

 

[Raven]

I've never said "Go Retro for the GTO". My beef is that Pontiac didn't design or build it and it looks way TOO much like every other full size sedan out there. It has no soul.

So GM took a car already being built in Australia, converted it to left hand drive, added a facia that mimics Pontiac's look and hung a GTO badge on it - Presto! It's a GTO!

Not to me. But, that's just me - and a BUNCH of other true GTO fans.

Don't get me wrong - the car IS a good car.

But it is NOT a GTO.

 

[Pronto]

I heard Jim Wangers at a Pontiac club meeting admit that the "press cars" were stuffed with the 421HO motor. So much for the stock GTO time recorded in those era mags. Sorry Raven, I've been around alot of Pontiacs and unless that GTO was a factory fluke I don't see it going 13.4. Littlesteve's 65 GTO tripower ran a 14.3 stock rebuild on bia ply tires.

 

[Raven]

I know the reports you're speaking of regarding Wangers.. But the facts are the facts. Wanger's flukes ran 13.1 as I recall with the big mph. The one I spoke of was most definitely a 389 car.

13.4 bone stock, 389 Tri Power, '64 GTO. Believe it. I was there when he ran it.

Sorry Pronto - I've been around a lot of 'em too.