Piston Slap on Start up _ Wiseco's

Mad_Trbo

Active Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
I recently put together a new motor with Wiseco pistions .20 over bore. I am experiencing a dieseling sound and I am wondering is this possibly piston slap. Something I heard about in my experiences with my Eclipse, an event that takes place until the pistons expand fully on these forged aluminum pistons.

Is this a common occurrence on the forged one's in the Buick? If so, at what point during operation does this sound go away? Full operating temperature?
 
Wiseco Pistons.

I was told Wisecos always make noise no matter what they are in. Before Buicks I was into air/oilcooled Suzukis motorcycles and Wiseco pistons were noisy in those motors all the time. My ATV has a Wiseco piston in it now and that thing is real noisy even when warm. Because of those expiriences I went with JE pistons.
 
I have relatively large bore clearance on the J&E recommendation and I have little to no piston noise. When it hits 150+degF there is no sound, even if you tried to listen. Keith did an engine with Wisecos (4.1) and that, too, is not that noisy, even on cold startup. That 4.1 block is driven everyday and sounds almost like a stocker.

.... that or maybe those frequencies have been tuned out of our ears over the years :eek:
 
I have JE pistons...the engine runs rough and they make a little noise on first(cold) startup but sound goes away in about 20 seconds...as long as the sound keeps going away in a short period of time I'm not going to worry about it...
 
Feedback

Thanks for the feedback, never having heard piston slap, I am at a disadvatage.

I just know the durn motor sounds way louder than the stocker kind of like a freaking diesel. :frown:

It is actually annoying, not at all what I expected, and I am paranoid to death because I assemble every part of the motor and this was the first time for me......
 
Mad_Trbo said:
Thanks for the feedback, never having heard piston slap, I am at a disadvatage.

I just know the durn motor sounds way louder than the stocker kind of like a freaking diesel. :frown:

It is actually annoying, not at all what I expected, and I am paranoid to death because I assemble every part of the motor and this was the first time for me......

My engine builder told me that there should be no noise with any piston if the correct cylinder to wall clearence is obtained. Always get the pistons before you bore!!! Some pistons are slightly deviated from what they are supposed to be by a few 10 thousanths or even thousanths. Getting the pistons first, you can measure them, and then bore accordingly to that piston to obtain the clearence. If this isnt done, you will get a noise from piston slap untill the piston warms up and expands. Also, ceramic pistons have been known to be loud because the ceramic expands at a different rate or something like that. Hope this helps. Im going with Diamonds do hopefully avoid the "noise" w/ JE and Weisco.
 
Actually you bore to get it close, then hone to get the correct piston to wall clearance. But this has to be done with pistons in hand.. and they all dont measure the same.
 
The pistons would have to be solid ceramic for that to apply.
Any good machinist has a little book where he writes the numbers down..at least i did. You never hone until you get the pistons and measure all of them. Some machinists are lazy and only measure 1 and go to town. Some manufacturers tend to have pistons with crushed skirts, which could cause your problem. Also, sometimes you run into some pistons that dont have the correct cam slope machined in them (piston skirts arent round). Ross pistons tended to really suck. Plus they're heavy as rocks. JE's were usually really good, as well as TRW's. I didnt do enough Wiseco's to remember. Anyway, you measure all the pistons, about 3/4" inch from the end of the skirt, and then rotate in the same spot a bit and measure, and then rotate the other direction and measure...to check the cam slope). You write the number down, and do your final hone based on that number. You should never bore and hone say, .030 over, and then shove some .030 over pistons in them. the hone is always based on the diameter of the largest piston skirt, after it has been crushed. (meaning after the skirts collapse a bit which they are designed to do. Thats why you dont measure at the very end of the skirt). After you've honed the block, you write down that final bore number, down to the 4th decimal (10 thousanths), next to the piston measurement. If you have to pistons that vary by .0015 to .002, then you shouldnt run them. If the machinist is willing, have them give you the piston diameter numbers and the final hone numbers. If youve already told them the engine is bad, they will either give you BS numbers, or wont give you any at all. Either cause they're ass holes, or cause they didnt measure them in the first place. Another thing about ****ty machinists, is that they dont periodically check and adjust their micrometers and bore gauges. You may either have short skirts in relation to the piston pin bore which is causing them to rock, or the wall clearance is too high on 1 or more cylinders, or you had a bad batch of pistons, where some jackass (manufacturer or machinist) dropped a piston on the floor and crushed a skirt. Crushed skirts were usually crushed by about .005-,010". Sometimes more depending on the severity. Its either one of these, or not even related to pistons. Maybe you have too much pin bore clearance, or main or rod journals that are too small for the bearings (1 main or 1 rod would be a knock...all of them would sound like a diesel), or maybe valvetrain noise.
 
Thanks

Thanks for the feedback, I purchased everything from a reputable vendor and I would hope the issue described in the previous post does not turn out to be the case.

I as mentioned previously don't have a lot of experience with these motors, I just noticed the motor seems much louder than the stock set up. What I have learned is it can be the hydraulic roller lifters. I could have the preload set wrong and I could be hearing lifter tick, but I doubt it. There are just so many things that could be playing into the issue I am facing or it could be nothing at all.
 
I recently built my motor with weisco pistons (.020 over). From the first instant the motor was started it had a diesel sound to it. I had a number of people listen to the noise and they all came to the same conclusion. Piston slap. My machinist said he honed the clearance to .0055. This is only 5 10ths. over what the manufacture specified. I called Weisco and they told me that these pistons had a shorter skirt that the stock pistons and had more clearance requirements. These also have an on center pin which will allow the piston to rock in the bore more than the off center pin in the stockers. Bottom line is you could get a little of that. I don't like it either but if that is what it is and it won't hurt anything so be it. I will be going to the Nats. Mon. and I will have an opportunity to ask some of the BIG BOYS what there take is.
 
eddc87 said:
I recently built my motor with weisco pistons (.020 over). From the first instant the motor was started it had a diesel sound to it. I had a number of people listen to the noise and they all came to the same conclusion. Piston slap. My machinist said he honed the clearance to .0055. This is only 5 10ths. over what the manufacture specified. I called Weisco and they told me that these pistons had a shorter skirt that the stock pistons and had more clearance requirements. These also have an on center pin which will allow the piston to rock in the bore more than the off center pin in the stockers. Bottom line is you could get a little of that. I don't like it either but if that is what it is and it won't hurt anything so be it. I will be going to the Nats. Mon. and I will have an opportunity to ask some of the BIG BOYS what there take is.

So from what you understand this won't hurt anything? I've been trying to get confirmation on this before I take further action, because as far as I am concerned there have been several issues with the materials I received for my build.
 
I'm running the .020 wiesco pistons.....no noise at all or atleast nothing I can hear over the roller cam and injectors.


:)
 
I fired the motor in Dec. and have 1300 miles on it now. I probably have 40 to 50 WOT street blasts and 3 passes down the track (18# to 22# of boost). I even took the pan off and checked bearings. They were fine. I have run three compression tests with the last being tonight and they were all within 3% of each other. (159-164). The rings have seated well and the car runs great. Just a little noise. It seems to have gotten better since I took it to the track. Or maybe I just want it to be.
 
eddc87 said:
I fired the motor in Dec. and have 1300 miles on it now. I probably have 40 to 50 WOT street blasts and 3 passes down the track (18# to 22# of boost). I even took the pan off and checked bearings. They were fine. I have run three compression tests with the last being tonight and they were all within 3% of each other. (159-164). The rings have seated well and the car runs great. Just a little noise. It seems to have gotten better since I took it to the track. Or maybe I just want it to be.


Well this is good to know and thanks for the feedback, continued success.
 
.0055 is really big. On pistons that recommended say .004-.005" clearance, I would give it about .0025-.003. Hypers can go really tight, like .001. Forged pistons can be tighter than people think.
 
VadersV6 said:
.0055 is really big. On pistons that recommended say .004-.005" clearance, I would give it about .0025-.003. Hypers can go really tight, like .001. Forged pistons can be tighter than people think.
Maybe that is why the pistons are so annoying. I did have the Weisco recomendation sheet and it did say the clearance should be .005. They didn't give a range and they would probably rather have them a little to loose than a little to tight.
 
eddc87 said:
Maybe that is why the pistons are so annoying. I did have the Weisco recomendation sheet and it did say the clearance should be .005. They didn't give a range and they would probably rather have them a little to loose than a little to tight.
Before people learned how to build 383 chevy's properly, they all had serious piston slap cause of the position of the pin bore in relation to the skirt. Its like someone walking up and pushing you while you're standing on your knees. You WILL fall over. You may have short skirts AND too much clearance. Sounds like Wiseco is a race only oriented company. Those clearances are ok (still not right, but ok) for a race motor, but in no way good for a street motor. Only things you can do is pull the motor and throw some JE's in there with new rings, or run some thicker oil.
 
Just a point of information from my experience.
I run JE's. I had them in there at .004. They were quiet on start up (cold). When I pulled the motor I found skirts were scuffing. The clearance was opened up to .005-.0055. They became noisy at cold start up but went away fairly quick after warm up. Subsequent tear down reveled no scuffing. From what I have oberved the JE's do expand a bit. Obviously if you run allot of boost /EGT's they may grow even further, so this should be considered when building your engine. I dont know about other forged brands but they may do the same. The engine will make a bit more HP with the looser fit as well.
 
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