Picking a New Full Race Stall Speed

[BadAssGN]

There is one single line of text that seemed to send this thread into the dumper...

The crickets have been quiet lately. Probably busy eating their words,... again.

From there to here is pretty ugly.:redface:

 

[BadAssGN]

This could have been such a great technical thread that many people could have gotten a lot of information from. Now it's just plain trash.

I would really like to see this thread turn around or a new one started, I was really looking forward to all the different input and constructive bickering :biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

There is one single line of text that seemed to send this thread into the dumper...



From there to here is pretty ugly.:redface:

You're absolutely right. I also think that is where things went bad.
If you look at the previous post and study the time stamps, you will see that things got real quiet for a bit of time. I'm not exactly sure why that was. I felt I had been very patient waiting as long as I did for some type of response. I would have figured that someone would have come up with a comment on the new performance numbers for the car, but,... nothing. I thought that was very strange. I was starting to wonder if maybe I was just wasting my time with this thread. I'm sure people are starting to get real tired of reading about my project, and I was starting to feel that if people were bored with this stuff, then I shouldn't bother spending the time.
I think that statement you brought up was my attempt to provoke my most valued critics to participate in the thread, and boy didn't they come out of the woodwork. I truly thought that if no one was paying attention to the thread anyway, that was going to be the last posting on my part. At least now, I know who my most valued critics are. Do you think that by the strength of their responses it showed some pent up feelings towards me? That's what I thought was real interesting.
Sometimes to get people to respond and paricipate, you need to shake the tree a little. Unfortunately, with just that one sentence, I didn't realize so many were more than ready to pounce on me in that manner when given the ripe chance to. It's sad that reaction had to end up being the most interesting point of this technical thread.

Looking back on it, when I saw that no one was interested in the thread, I should have just let the thread die.

 

[Alky V6]

I would really like to see this thread turn around or a new one started, I was really looking forward to all the different input and constructive bickering :biggrin:

I was very excited about it, and looking forward to it also.
I had finally come to a point with my project where I could start a thread about a subject that finally everyone could sink their teeth into. The technical discussion would have been on a subject that everyone could have benefited from. A subject that is very rarely discussed or documented in great detail. And, you know how detailed I can be. This thread could have turned into a jewel. But some just had a hard time putting their feelings towards me aside, and ruined it for everyone else.

Like John asked earlier, I wonder where the moderators were? Were they enjoying the pile on too? If this thread had started in the political section, I would have expected a thread to continue like this, but in a technical section? I wonder what they were thinking?

 

[baadgn]

I was very excited about it, and looking forward to it also.
I had finally come to a point with my project where I could start a thread about a subject that finally everyone could sink their teeth into. The technical discussion would have been on a subject that everyone could have benefited from. A subject that is very rarely discussed or documented in great detail. And, you know how detailed I can be. This thread could have turned into a jewel. But some just had a hard time putting their feelings towards me aside, and ruined it for everyone else.

Like John asked earlier, I wonder where the moderators were? Were they enjoying the pile on too? If this thread had started in the political section, I would have expected a thread to continue like this, but in a technical section? I wonder what they were thinking?

Don, let it die the the death it deserves. you admit to poking your critics and now your sorry it turned into the slugfest. The reason nobody responded to you after your car ran 5.99 is because it was still off by a lot. How were we to know you would be exstatic with those numbers. If you wanted a reaction with that poke well...... YOU GOT IT !!

 

[Alky V6]

Let me explain one more thing since some of you have shown your concern as to how "I" could have let this thread get this far out of control. After all, all these learned experts were only so graciously trying to help me along here.

I haven't gone back and reread the thread, so I'll just give you my impression at this point of what I felt happened. The rest of you can go back and reread the thread if you wish and tell me if I'm off base here.
There were a few very respectable responses early on in the thread. They put in their .02 cents and let it rest so that the thread could progress. Those were responses that I greatly appreciated and I was glad to see those individuals participating. I think that was Nick and Bison.

Some of the other experts I felt, only began to participate in this thread when I opened the door with that one simple sentence to have them nail me to the wall and beat a thoroughly dead horse. It didn't really appear to me that they had started participating in the thread to help it along. Only to criticise. I spent a lot of wasted time trying to defend their criticisms on a topic that had already been beaten into the ground on previous threads by the same individuals. I'll patiently wait for someone to tell me I'm wrong about that perception. You might also add how that type of gracious input from those experts was helping the thread along. Those that do reread the thread, also take note how often I tried to steer this thread into a more productive path and those that didn't seem to want or allow that to happen.

If anything, this thread allowed me to find out who my harshest critics are. That's about all I got out of this sad excuse of a technical thread. May it now die in peace.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

The crickets have been quiet lately. Probably busy eating their words,... again.

A summary of the results up to now.
On the first outing attempt with a new TC, a small amount of preliminary tuning work done to work the TC into the combination, a conservative max boost for the testing session, and a sloppy boost control pressure curve up to this point, for all practical purposes the present combination has now matched the average performance of the prior T76 combination. I wonder how many people thought this time would never come after the change to the 91mm.

Tuning items that still need attention and optimization:

Nitrous shot size for this new TC combination. There is now the opportunity to increase the shot size.

Boost controller control pressure curve. It's close, but needs fine tuning.

Max boost level. After the boost controller is dialed in better, then boost levels will be pushed up to find the new limits of this combination.

Tire pressures. As boost levels are pushed, different tire pressures will be tried.

Chassis settings. As boost levels are pushed, the chassis will be more closely looked at. After the nitrous shot size is finalized, a lot of video taping of the launches is planned.

How much nitrous were you using?
How much higher are you going?

 

[Alky V6]

How much nitrous whir you using?
How much higher are you going?

The latest performance was with the 364 shot. That was the highest shot size I had gotten up to with the old TC.
The new TC opened the door for increasing the nitrous shot size further. The next test outing will be with a 393 shot. I'll be doing some testing of the new shot size in the shop tomorrow.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

The latest performance was with the 364 shot. That was the highest shot size I had gotten up to with the old TC.
The new TC opened the door for increasing the nitrous shot size further. The next test outing will be with a 393 shot. I'll be doing some testing of the new shot size in the shop tomorrow.

Don't forget the video camera:biggrin:

 

[Alky V6]

I have to ask, because I still see some, who I still hold great regard for, still confused about why I would spend so much time dialing in sections of my fuel map which I most likely will not end up using when this project finally reaches completion. I think I've tried to explain it here and there earlier in this thread between the messy stuff, but some may still be lost.
I am willing to give a detailed, definitive explanation of all the reasons behind my playing around with the fuel table, and why the low stall TC was necessary for that playing around, only if there are those that are truly interested, and think they can get something out of my effort to explain it.
I'm not looking for a debate or input from others, unless it is a question because I didn't explain something well enough.
The explanation is going to involve the use of nitrous/methanol with turbocharging. Those that are steadfast in their position against the use of nitrous oxide injection to expand the useful power curve of their engine can tune out now to save themselves the frustration.
I will wait and see if there is enough interest.

 

[Otto J]

The explanation is going to involve the use of nitrous/methanol with turbocharging. Those that are steadfast in their position against the use of nitrous oxide injection to expand the useful power curve of their engine can tune out now to save themselves the frustration.
I will wait and see if there is enough interest.

Unsubscribed

 

[BadAssGN]

I am interested to know

 

[Alky V6]

We'll skip that explanation then. I think there's enough in this thread, that when put all together would explain my reasons. Most of them, anyway.

Here's a very interesting case in point about the importance of straightening out your tuneup before you go changing TCs around. I don't know why I didn't think of this particular case when we were in the heart of the discussion, but this actually occurred within the last 6 months.

A customer of mine, who I had built an engine for, but not tuned, called me up a few weeks or so after taking delivery wondering what stall TC I had supplied to him years previously. We had also done the trans for him many years previously. I told him I couldn't remember exactly, and asked what the problem was. He told me he had someone helping him tune the engine and they felt the stall was too low for the combination. I believe they were experiencing a stall speed of around 2200 rpm, where they were hoping for 3200. The exact numbers I don't recall, but you can get the picture that the stall was way off from what the customer was hoping for. I asked about some of the tuning parameters they were using and how they were testing the stall speed, and I got the impression from the answer they gave me that they really hadn't gotten deep into the tuneup yet and were actually a little lost. I asked them how they could judge the TC when they really hadn't done much with the tuneup yet. The answer was something like, what? The customer ended up bringing the car to me to tune.

When I had finished with a very safe tuneup, the TC was stalling at or above what the customer had originally been looking for. This was accomplished without changing the torque converter.

If the customer had jumped the gun and changed out the torque converter before he realized the full potential of his new engine, he would have wasted his money and would have ended up having to put the original TC back in after the new TC was found to be too loose with the finalized tuneup.

It was amazing that a tuneup actually made that much of a difference, but it did. Even I was surprised.

 

[Alky V6]

Oh. I should add. In the above case, nitrous was not involved.

 

[S2V6RACER]

We'll skip that explanation then. I think there's enough in this thread, that when put all together would explain my reasons. Most of them, anyway.

Here's a very interesting case in point about the importance of straightening out your tuneup before you go changing TCs around. I don't know why I didn't think of this particular case when we were in the heart of the discussion, but this actually occurred within the last 6 months.

A customer of mine, who I had built an engine for, but not tuned, called me up a few weeks or so after taking delivery wondering what stall TC I had supplied to him years previously. We had also done the trans for him many years previously. I told him I couldn't remember exactly, and asked what the problem was. He told me he had someone helping him tune the engine and they felt the stall was too low for the combination. I believe they were experiencing a stall speed of around 2200 rpm, where they were hoping for 3200. The exact numbers I don't recall, but you can get the picture that the stall was way off from what the customer was hoping for. I asked about some of the tuning parameters they were using and how they were testing the stall speed, and I got the impression from the answer they gave me that they really hadn't gotten deep into the tuneup yet and were actually a little lost. I asked them how they could judge the TC when they really hadn't done much with the tuneup yet. The answer was something like, what? The customer ended up bringing the car to me to tune.

When I had finished with a very safe tuneup, the TC was stalling at or above what the customer had originally been looking for. This was accomplished without changing the torque converter.

If the customer had jumped the gun and changed out the torque converter before he realized the full potential of his new engine, he would have wasted his money and would have ended up having to put the original TC back in after the new TC was found to be too loose with the finalized tuneup.

It was amazing that a tuneup actually made that much of a difference, but it did. Even I was surprised.

All this really tells us is the guy who was tuning the customers car had no idea what he was doing. If the customer had put a different converter in the car per his tuners advice he would have ended up P/O'ed at the tuner in the end because he gave the customer bad advice and the new converter was too loose once a real tuner got his hands on it. In this case it was a good thing the customer got a different tuner as you would have to wonder what kind of time bomb he had when he made his first pass if he used a guy who can't even get the spoolup tune right.

There is nobody doubting you can do some magic with the tune help a converter stall higher, but once you reach the limits of what the tuneup can do you have to make the call. Sounds like you made a good one here.

 

[Alky V6]

All this really tells us is the guy who was tuning the customers car had no idea what he was doing. If the customer had put a different converter in the car per his tuners advice he would have ended up P/O'ed at the tuner in the end because he gave the customer bad advice and the new converter was too loose once a real tuner got his hands on it. In this case it was a good thing the customer got a different tuner as you would have to wonder what kind of time bomb he had when he made his first pass if he used a guy who can't even get the spoolup tune right.

There is nobody doubting you can do some magic with the tune help a converter stall higher, but once you reach the limits of what the tuneup can do you have to make the call. Sounds like you made a good one here.

You're correct. The customer was not a tuner and the helper had just gotten his feet wet with his own car.
But,... as is so typical with most do it yourselfer/newbie tuners that want to conquer the tuning world, the first thing they wanted to do was send the TC back to have it re-stalled. They felt they couldn't possibly tune the engine correctly with the TC so tight. Of course, in this situation, that ended up being a good thing, because that ultimately got me involved in the process.

Chad just got his new TC from Dusty installed and is on the first test drive with it. :biggrin:

 

[baadgn]

All this really tells us is the guy who was tuning the customers car had no idea what he was doing. If the customer had put a different converter in the car per his tuners advice he would have ended up P/O'ed at the tuner in the end because he gave the customer bad advice and the new converter was too loose once a real tuner got his hands on it. In this case it was a good thing the customer got a different tuner as you would have to wonder what kind of time bomb he had when he made his first pass if he used a guy who can't even get the spoolup tune right.

There is nobody doubting you can do some magic with the tune help a converter stall higher, but once you reach the limits of what the tuneup can do you have to make the call. Sounds like you made a good one here.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dusty Bradford]

You're correct. The customer was not a tuner and the helper had just gotten his feet wet with his own car.
But,... as is so typical with most do it yourselfer/newbie tuners that want to conquer the tuning world, the first thing they wanted to do was send the TC back to have it re-stalled. They felt they couldn't possibly tune the engine correctly with the TC so tight. Of course, in this situation, that ended up being a good thing, because that ultimately got me involved in the process.

Chad just got his new TC from Dusty installed and is on the first test drive with it. :biggrin:

Great. Let me know how it goes. It should spool that turbo like it's on nitrous and still slip under 7%.

What you just described is what a lot of my time is spent on with some customers. Sometimes the converter isn't optimum but often the tune-up is a good ways off during spooling which leads to issues. I won't do a restall until I get good info from the customer. Preferably track data. If I can get data log files it's even better.

Amazingly, there a few (which happen to be outside the Buick world) who can not grasp how important the tune-up is to get the car on boost and basically refuse to change anything other than the converter.

 

[Alky V6]

There is nobody doubting you can do some magic with the tune help a converter stall higher, but once you reach the limits of what the tuneup can do you have to make the call.

Exactly!!!!!!

Once you have reached the limits of what the tuneup can do.

 

[Alky V6]

Great. Let me know how it goes. It should spool that turbo like it's on nitrous and still slip under 7%.

What you just described is what a lot of my time is spent on with some customers. Sometimes the converter isn't optimum but often the tune-up is a good ways off during spooling which leads to issues. I won't do a restall until I get good info from the customer. Preferably track data. If I can get data log files it's even better.

Amazingly, there a few (which happen to be outside the Buick world) who can not grasp how important the tune-up is to get the car on boost and basically refuse to change anything other than the converter.

Looks real promising so far. We're going to setup a date for the dyno to do some tuning.