Found a StageII here in Sweden, have questions!

[Alky V6]

Thanks for sharing Your thoughts.

Regarding the rods, our engine builder recommeded to use Oliver I-beams instead and go with a solid wrist pin. It would be more weight, but much more reliable.

Another question popped up, and that´s regarding throttle bodies. The plan, so far, is to use a single turbo setup. What would be a good sized TB for that? What about the Wilson 105mm along with a 90deg neck, or should we fab a sheetmetal plenum and custom TB´s?

Thanks
/A & U

If your going for Max effort (1500+ HP), have Oliver build you a custom set. The off the shelf rods are not setup for real high HP. I would guess they're very reliable at the 900 - 1000 HP level. Tapered thick wall pins are the way to go. I have used tapered thick wall Ti pins with success.

Again, If MAX EFFORT is the direction, I would go with 2 progressively controlled throttle bodies in the range of 90mm each. This will be zero restriction well past 2000 HP. If 1000 HP is the goal, use one 90mm.

 

[The Swede]

I have a bit of experience running 100% methanol in the Buick V6. Blown up 2 so far. Still, I wouldn't consider burning anything else.

I'm using Electromotive's TEC II EMS for spark. They claim the spark is hotter with this system compared to others, but I'll bet any system would fire the engine fine. It's not as picky as some people think.

I have used Carillo rods and they will work fine, but will fold if you get into pre-ignition with your engine. I'm trying Oliver's in the next engine. Any rod would fold, I'm sure. Aluminum rods are out of the question with the Buick V6. The cam location is too low and you can't build enough meat into the rod using aluminum material. It would be fine for lower HP levels. You may consider having Oliver or Cunningham build you a custom rod for your anticipated HP level. An off the shelf rod may not be enough.

11.5 to 1 compression will work, but without an IC your boost will be very limited. Around 25 to 26 will be your danger point. My next engine will be 9.25 to one which should give me a boost limit of just over 30 psi. I do run a liquid IC also. Even methanol burning engines will benefit from good intercooling. If your going to run this car on a long course, lower the CR! Alky engines like to be cool. As the block builds up heat, it will put you closer to dangerous pre-ignition. You will get no pinging to warn you with alky. The tune up can be very touchy.

About the methanol contaminating the engine oil. It most surely will if you do not properly setup your crankcase ventilation. I use a Moroso vacuum pump to ventilate the block and it works fantastic. No more oil problems. I can now run heavy synthetic without worrying about having to change out the oil often.

Donnie,

Thanks alot!

That info you just shared was awsome!

But.... if we go down to 9:1 in compression? Or cant this be done with custom rods?

 

[The Swede]

I have a bit of experience running 100% methanol in the Buick V6. Blown up 2 so far. Still, I wouldn't consider burning anything else.

sorry to hear that, could you find out what caused the blown up?

 

[The Swede]

Again, If MAX EFFORT is the direction, I would go with 2 progressively controlled throttle bodies in the range of 90mm each. This will be zero restriction well past 2000 HP.

We don't know anything about Max Effort and how it works, couldn't the 2 TB's be handled by some other system?

 

[Alky V6]

With a 50cc chamber and a piston to head clearance of .060", I only need a very shallow dish in the shape of the combustion chamber to get my 9.27 to one target CR. I can get you the exact spec, if you need it, but it won't pertain to your setup because I'm running a short stroke crank, 3.060". You would need a deeper dish and/or more piston to head clearance. If your running a long stroke 3.625", which is what a max effort project would demand, you need to watch your ring package height for both a deeper dish and pin location. The easiest solution would be to run a moderate deep dish and locate the piston further down in the bore by adjusting your rod length. The exact length you need to use would require some calculations, which I'm sure your engine builder should be able to handle for you.

 

[Lunkan]

If your going for Max effort (1500+ HP), have Oliver build you a custom set. The off the shelf rods are not setup for real high HP. I would guess they're very reliable at the 900 - 1000 HP level. Tapered thick wall pins are the way to go. I have used tapered thick wall Ti pins with success.

Again, If MAX EFFORT is the direction, I would go with 2 progressively controlled throttle bodies in the range of 90mm each. This will be zero restriction well past 2000 HP.

We are looking to build is a reliable engine, not to squeeze it to the very limit and keep running on the edge. We haven´t set a figure, but was hoping 1300-1500hp´s.

As for the pistons, the builder were GUESSING a 30cc dish would be needed to get a good CR for our combination with these heads. He also stated that this is a greyzone in Sweden, no one is using these engines here. Who´s got good pistoncores to look for?

 

[Alky V6]

sorry to hear that, could you find out what caused the blown up?

The first engine blowup was in the pursuit of finding out what the alcohol would take. The analysis was;
Too small a cam, developing too much cylinder pressure at peak torque.
Too lean a mixture. There is a fine line between max power and too lean with alky. If you get power greedy with alky, you will blow.
Too much boost with too small a turbo(32 psi)
CR was at 10.4 to one, but that was OK as long as you identify the max boost limit for that particular CR. After you have identified that limit, you can calculate what the limit would be for any given CR.

The second engine was a boost spike problem. Over the entire weekend I had noticed that off the line and during the shifts, the boost was spiking. The wastegate is the latest HKS 60mm, so that wasn't the problem. The wastegate just wasn't reacting fast enough. The next engine will use a CO2 bottle to control the wastegate along with the electronic controller that I've already been using. I had calculated previously that the danger point for that CR was going to be 28 psi. I was controlling for 22 psi. Previous runs over the weekend were spiking to 26 and 27 with no problems. The last run for that engine, the boost spiked to 28 at 5,200 rpm. That was peak torque for that engine and we all know that cylinder pressure is the highest at max boost and peak torque. The alky pre-ignited with a simple, loud pop and the number 6 rod simply folded. Carillo. The # 5 cylinder piston pin tried to shear. Tapered thick wall Ti pin.

 

[Alky V6]

We are looking to build is a reliable engine, not to squeeze it to the very limit and keep running on the edge. We haven´t set a figure, but was hoping 1300-1500hp´s.

As for the pistons, the builder were GUESSING a 30cc dish would be needed to get a good CR for our combination with these heads. He also stated that this is a greyzone in Sweden, no one is using these engines here. Who´s got good pistoncores to look for?

I use JE. In both engine failures, they came out looking fantastic.

 

[Lunkan]

Again, If MAX EFFORT is the direction, I would go with 2 progressively controlled throttle bodies in the range of 90mm each. This will be zero restriction well past 2000 HP. If 1000 HP is the goal, use one 90mm.

What would be the benefit of two progressive controlled TB´s? Wouldn´t a single 90 or 105 flow enough for say 1500hp?

Please share all Your thoughts.

Regards
/Andreas

 

[Alky V6]

A single 90mm would be fine for 1500 HP. You might even consider larger. The reason I stated two 90mm for say 1800 HP is because your engine air flow requirement at that HP level would be around 2400 cfm. A single 90mm will flow bench at somewhere over 900 cfm. The reason for the progressive idea is strictly for pit area driveability. Having two 90mm throttle blades crack open at the same time has got to be pretty aggressive.

I have a lot of thoughts. Some good and most of them hair brain. Keep asking and I'll keep trying to give you answers until your just plain bored with me.

 

[Lunkan]

Bored? That would take quite some time to get me bored

At this HP level, how would size and design of intake/plenum affect? Would it be to consider fab´ing a custom design intake, or convert the stock intake along with 90deg elbow/105mm TB?

 

[Alky V6]

That is a personal preference. My opinion is, if your looking for optimum runner tuning and distribution, a custom manifold is the only way to go. A single four barrel carb manifold is too full of compromises. I prefer short runners with over a 5 degree included taper and a large single plenum. You could go with a small plenum to try and work the pulse tuning side, but using a large plenum will let the engine feel as though it's breathing through individual runners, which will tend to give a flatter torque curve. I'm currently using 2.75" length intake runners on a stage I configuration and I don't see any gain from lengthening them in a Stage II setup, except to gain more midrange. If your dragging, you should be optimizing the top end. Fitting 2 injectors on a runner that measures 2.75" length is another problem.

105mm would be a good choice.

 

[EightSecV6]

I use Carrillo rods in my current engine, probably makes in the 1500hp range on gasoline with a Crower billet crank and a pt98 turbo at 26-28# of boost. If you are not using a manual trans, you will probably not be able to spool anything bigger than a 91 or so in a reasonable amount of time. GRP will cam grind a set of aluminum rods in any length that work fine in a 1500 hp Buick v6 but they are only good for 100 passes or so.Ross pistons are the best and definately the lightest imo. I see alot of talk recently about 1800 PLUS hp from a Buick V6,(1500 is gonna be hard to get, even on alky) I dont think it is possible with a max cid of 280 or so,even on nitrous but that is just me.

 

[Alky V6]

I tried to get Bill at BME to make me a set of aluminum rods and at first, he flat out refused and said they can't be made strong enough because of the cam location. I told him that I wasn't running a long stroke and was actually running a short 3.06 stroke. That would leave more room for more rod material. He seemed interested and asked me to clay an old rod for him. I did better and created a CAD layout for him. Faxed it to him and he decided that he didn't feel comfortable doing the project, because of the strength factor. By the way, I had told him that I was aiming for a target of 1100 HP on alcohol, stage I and that I realized, and was planning on changing out the rods every 75 runs. He was absolutely spooked about the project.

Now, I know that he has made aluminum rods for Buicks in the past. Why the change of heart? Did he develop a bad taste with the Buicks over the years? If that is the case, I appreciate his honest opinion. He could have just made me a set of time bombs and I wouldn't have known better. It wasn't because of the alcohol, either. As soon as he heard Buick, he jolted.

I'm aware 1800hp is a lofty goal, but if people didn't chase their dreams we wouldn't even have 1500hp stage IIs running around. I think I'm going to give it a try. It looks good on paper. What's the worst that can happen? Blow up another motor? Heck, I'm good at that.

 

[John Wilde]

I tried to get Bill at BME to make me a set of aluminum rods and at first, he flat out refused and said they can't be made strong enough because of the cam location. I told him that I wasn't running a long stroke and was actually running a short 3.06 stroke. That would leave more room for more rod material. He seemed interested and asked me to clay an old rod for him. I did better and created a CAD layout for him. Faxed it to him and he decided that he didn't feel comfortable doing the project, because of the strength factor. By the way, I had told him that I was aiming for a target of 1100 HP on alcohol, stage I and that I realized, and was planning on changing out the rods every 75 runs. He was absolutely spooked about the project.

Now, I know that he has made aluminum rods for Buicks in the past. Why the change of heart? Did he develop a bad taste with the Buicks over the years? If that is the case, I appreciate his honest opinion. He could have just made me a set of time bombs and I wouldn't have known better. It wasn't because of the alcohol, either. As soon as he heard Buick, he jolted.

I'm aware 1800hp is a lofty goal, but if people didn't chase their dreams we wouldn't even have 1500hp stage IIs running around. I think I'm going to give it a try. It looks good on paper. What's the worst that can happen? Blow up another motor? Heck, I'm good at that.

Don,

We have a set of GT42Rs with the 74MM Compressors that might be the ticket for you. They have already made over 1860 at around 26~27psi.

 

[John Wilde]

I use Carrillo rods in my current engine, probably makes in the 1500hp range on gasoline with a Crower billet crank and a pt98 turbo at 26-28# of boost. If you are not using a manual trans, you will probably not be able to spool anything bigger than a 91 or so in a reasonable amount of time. GRP will cam grind a set of aluminum rods in any length that work fine in a 1500 hp Buick v6 but they are only good for 100 passes or so.Ross pistons are the best and definately the lightest imo. I see alot of talk recently about 1800 PLUS hp from a Buick V6,(1500 is gonna be hard to get, even on alky) I dont think it is possible with a max cid of 280 or so,even on nitrous but that is just me.

Duttweiler has made 1800HP plus with smaller import motors.
I know that the 4 valve heads will make more power but with the
extra cubes I would think that you even that out.

Matt Harford makes 1800ish with a 3.5 litre GM High Feature v6 on alcky.
Tell me why a 4.5 litre motor could not make up for the heads?

 

[1dmbth]

I think if someone keeps pushing foward 1800 will happen. It certainly won't if no one tries.

 

[EightSecV6]

I think if someone keeps pushing foward 1800 will happen. It certainly won't if no one tries.

-over 20 year old port and chamber design (ever wonder why the Dart Buick heads for the SBC were the cats a$$ on a sbc for years and now they are hardly a contender?) evolution
-pushrods
-2 vlaves/cyl
-long stroke, long rod,heavy components. 10,000 rpms with nearly 7hp/cid is not going to live very long.

I surely would like to see things evolve into 1800hp and I surely wanted to discourage anyone for trying but I think it is a very tall order. Best of luck guys.

 

[Alky V6]

My calculations so far show 1,863 HP peaking at 7,750 rpm with an intake port velocity of 310 feet per second with the stage II head flow example that was given to me in this thread. 310 is a very do-able figure. Definitely not out of the realm of possibility. The trick is going to be compressor efficiency. It must be in the 70% range. The plan so far is to try this with a single turbo, using nitrous for spool up only. Similar to my current Stage I setup. I will be exploring twin turbos, too. John, I will keep the turbo recommendation in mind.
The scary thing is, the BMEP is over 700 and peak cylinder pressure is over 4,000 psi. The rods will need to be special order for sure.

About the Dart/Buick heads for the SBC. I always thought those were the most impressive head I ever saw the the SBC. I had heard that NASCAR possibly outlawed it and I wondered if the aftermarket never really embrassed the head evidenced by the lack of manifolding and cams on the market. Was it prejudice against the Buick name, again? That is just my impression. I have read some interesting articles on these heads. Maybe someone knows the real story. I sure would like to hear it.

 

[Lunkan]

I´d just wanted tho thank You guys for sharing Your oppinions and thoughts. Uffe and I are having a hard time getting the cash now, so we will start low at around 1000-1100 hp and tune up the chassi from there. It´s just a wet dream to aim at the higher numbers directly...

Well, I´ve just put a webpage up for our raceteam. We are calling it Team STB Racing, which stands for Swedish Turbo Buick Racing. Please check it out and tell me what You guys think
http://stb-racing.com