Coolingmist/Devil's Own h2o/meth

[coolingmist]

In terms of better electonics Digital beats analog any day of the week. If analog was so good,we would all be using 8 tracks and cassette instead of DVD and CD. Better electronics is something that has a faster response time and more precise metering.

The term "buick specific" is used to liberally. There is a company that advertises a buick specific kit (not on this forum) , whats the difference? it has a 3 bar map sensor upgrade.. Guess what? we read boost directly as our system has a built in MAP sensor, no need to have an external one.

I agree that having custom mounting points (such as the kit on this forum) and so forth is great and my hat goes off to a company that does that. In terms of dialing in the flow you need, precision, build quality our systems are at the top of the heap. Anyone that wants to use the stock ww fluid tank or overflow tank can do so with ours as well.



David

 

[scot w.]

Did you actually read the post--it says nothing about pump gas. My point is that coming up with a vid isn't going to change anyone's mind. If someone goes 150 with pump gas/alky and a different kit I don't think everyone is going to switch over so what's the point? Everyone's combo is different and everyone's goal are different--let everyone have thier own opinion and spend thier money where they want too.

Steve you need to look at the point and stay on track! that this is in the ALCHOL SECTION, this is on a BUICK SITE. talking about Pump gas/Methanol injection on BUICKS! So whether it's using Dick's injection kit, Tom's squirter kit or a Backyard DIY kit we are only looking for good results thats all. If another kit comes around with good results on a buick thats into the 9's, low 10's then thats great!
The PROBLEM is when people come on here CLAIMING what there kit/kit's WILL do (woulda,coulda,shoulda), Instead of showing us results with some of there customers cars on video putting up the times using pumpgas/methanol!

The reason I like to refer to the video's is because if you can't be there in person to see the car run next best thing is a video.

** All kinds of test numbers/flow numbers don't mean sh*t unless the product actually works on the car!!

 

[scot w.]

In terms of better electonics Digital beats analog any day of the week. If analog was so good,we would all be using 8 tracks and cassette instead of DVD and CD. Better electronics is something that has a faster response time and more precise metering.

The term "buick specific" is used to liberally. There is a company that advertises a buick specific kit (not on this forum) , whats the difference? it has a 3 bar map sensor upgrade.. Guess what? we read boost directly as our system has a built in MAP sensor, no need to have an external one.

I agree that having custom mounting points (such as the kit on this forum) and so forth is great and my hat goes off to a company that does that. In terms of dialing in the flow you need, precision, build quality our systems are at the top of the heap. Anyone that wants to use the stock ww fluid tank or overflow tank can do so with ours as well.



David

David Iv'e got an idea! maybe you should donate one of your kits to a random buick customer here? (Not a special singled out person) One actually from random!. Then he can give proper feedback on the ease of the install, how easy it is to tune it, How well it does using 100% methanol, How fast he ends up going with it!!

I'm out seeing i'm already in the mid 10's on my stock block, stock crank, stock rods, stock intake buick. :biggrin:

 

[2QUIK6]

I think all these akly injection kit makers need to bring their stuff out to Bowling Green this May so someone will actually have the bragging rights!!

Oh..some of those companies don't have a Turbo Buick in their fleet of test cars??

It's like taking your turbo Buick to an engine builder that's never built a turbo Buick motor...but have done all the others

 

[Steve]

Steve you need to look at the point and stay on track! that this is in the ALCHOL SECTION, this is on a BUICK SITE. talking about Pump gas/Methanol injection on BUICKS! So whether it's using Dick's injection kit, Tom's squirter kit or a Backyard DIY kit we are only looking for good results thats all. If another kit comes around with good results on a buick thats into the 9's, low 10's then thats great!
The PROBLEM is when people come on here CLAIMING what there kit/kit's WILL do (woulda,coulda,shoulda), Instead of showing us results with some of there customers cars on video putting up the times using pumpgas/methanol!

The reason I like to refer to the video's is because if you can't be there in person to see the car run next best thing is a video.

** All kinds of test numbers/flow numbers don't mean sh*t unless the product actually works on the car!!

Scot, you are missing my point. I have never said one negative thing about the Alky Control system on this post or any other. I am not saying the others are as good or better. I am just saying everyone deserves to have an opinion and make thier own choices. Ours cars are pretty comparable with parts and performance but we did it with two different alky systems. The beauty of the Alky Control system on a Buick is that it is a known qauntity and TT has the tuning down with thier chip and it just plain works. TT also burned my chip but I had to do some tuning to get mine where it needed to be. Eric could only go on what I told him the system would do and it was an educated guess on my part so it was not perfect to start with because the info I gave Eric wasn't 100% accuarte but to Eric's credit he was very close and I appreciate his help! That's why if I was going to recommend an alky system to a Buick owner I would recommend an Alky Control system but if they choose to go a different route-more power to them. Thier money, thier car. Scot, I don't think we disagree on anything other than the approach to this topic.

 

[Pablo]

Pablo,

I will not promise you that we are perfect, but I will say that we do our best to provide customers with data on how our product works. We have a video section that has more than 25 videos. Here are a few.

This page details our stage 3D. The kit injects based on Air Temp, boost and RPM. Its a precise kit due to the graph set up below. Most kits on the market have a MIN and MAX knob, some have a tune. But you really have no control over how much it sprays other than giving you a linear output based on a single input. For those that want something better and need more control we can do 2 or 3 inputs if the customer does not want a single one.

CLICK FOR VIDEO

This one is our grid using boost and RPM in a 2D mode. Using this grid you can make sure you have exactly what you need as far as flow.

Lets talk about what happens with our kit, when you change min/max/tune. We have a real flow sensor to show you.

Here is the tune knob being changed. You will notice the max flow increasing. We kept the boost steady, but changed the tune to show you at any set boost level the under curve will change.

CLICK FOR VIDEO

Changing the MINIMUM button and keeping boost steady.
This video shows what happens as you change the Min knob higher or lower on our Varicool controller. The difference between the MIN and MAX knob will determine how fast the system injects. On this video the GREEN is minimum knob, RED is MAX. light blue is flow and white is boost. The MIN knob is the PSI you want the system to start injecting, the Max is the PSI you want it to be on full flow.

CLICK FOR VIDEO

This shows you what happens as you change the Max knob higher or lower. On this video the GREEN is minimum knob, RED is MAX. light blue is flow and white is boost. Notice the flow increases/decreases. Where the min/max are set in relation to each other help to determine how fast or slow the system will progress.

CLICK FOR VIDEO


Here is our system responding to boost on a slow spooling vehicle:

This video shows the progressive nature of our Varicool controller. You see in a slow spool how fast it reacts. Notice as boost increases, so does flow. Flow is indicated by the thick blue line, boost is indicated by the white line.

CLICK FOR VIDEO

This video shows the progressive nature of our Varicool controller on a fast spool. Flow is indicated by the thick blue line, boost is indicated by the white line. Boost comes on fast and our controller matches it. VERY fast reaction.

CLICK FOR VIDEO

Now getting to response time with RPM...how fast can our system respond to RPM signal? Here are two vids to show you.

CLICK FOR VIDEO

Here is our Super High Speed Valve using a Frequency Based MAF singal. Notice the flow increase with MAF.

CLICK FOR VIDEO

We do extensive testing on our product. The world of meth injection has advanced beyond simple analog devices, today with the right technology you can run more than one input to insure proper flow at RPM VS BOOST, etc.

David

Wow. This is what I am talking about. More than one input.. hadn't even considered that. That's awesome. I added a very basic aux input to a kit by installing a wot microswitch to initiate starting point flow so the pump would have a little head start in order to keep up with the spike in boost.
I could have really been ahead with a tps input I would imagine. I like the rpm signal option too. Thats a lot of adjustability. Nice.

An interesting point that this brings up is the fact that just using boost causes a greater proportion of your fueling to be from methanol at a lower rpm than you would at a higher rpm. With engine management work arounds this isn't such a huge deal. But for someone with limited engine tunability (like say some cars with obscure ecms or systems that are very unfriendly to tinkering) this can be a gold mine. First thing that comes to mind are the turbo dodge 4cyls.. iirc their stock ecm situation caps off fuel flow at a certain level. In this case an alcohol kit with two rpm/boost tunability could probably allow them to overcome this obstacle

 

[2QUIK6]

An interesting point that this brings up is the fact that just using boost causes a greater proportion of your fueling to be from methanol at a lower rpm than you would at a higher rpm.

Thats what makes progessive units light years ahead of non. You can set the point when you want the meth to start spraying, and you can also set the "ramp up" of how quickly the meth pressure increases with boost.
Mine starts spraying at 5psi boost and reaches max pressure of around 220psi at around 20psi of boost.
My kits is over 4 years old and had all of that control and has worked flawlessly since install.
Not to mention some spare parts and gauges that Julio sent me at no charge to help debug a problem I was having after the install, thats customer service!!

 

[Pablo]

Thats what makes progessive units light years ahead of non. You can set the point when you want the meth to start spraying, and you can also set the "ramp up" of how quickly the meth pressure increases with boost.
Mine starts spraying at 5psi boost and reaches max pressure of around 220psi at around 20psi of boost.
My kits is over 4 years old and had all of that control and has worked flawlessly since install.
Not to mention some spare parts and gauges that Julio sent me at no charge to help debug a problem I was having after the install, thats customer service!!

I understand how the popular progressive system works.

No, a progressive kit just using a boost reference does not address the issue of fuel vs rpm.

You could have 25 psi at 4000 rpm and you can have 25 psi at 5000 rpm. The engine's fuel requirement at 5000 rpm is greater for the same span of time than the engine's fuel requirement at 4000 rpm. Alcohol kits that only use a boost reference will still provide the same amount of fuel (alcohol) at 4000 as they would at 5000.

Simply put, at lower rpm given the same boost level, more of your fuel is coming from methanol than at high rpm with the same boost level.

Is this a problem? Not really when you can tune your gasoline side (ecm) to compensate. As I stated in my previous post however, for some with limited engine tunability this can be a very tricky part to get right.

 

[Mr.Spool]

video's of technology vs. video's of real world results, yes let people make up their own mind.

 

[Grumpy]

video's of technology vs. video's of real world results, yes let people make up their own mind.

X2 thats the bottom line

 

[2QUIK6]

You could have 25 psi at 4000 rpm and you can have 25 psi at 5000 rpm. The engine's fuel requirement at 5000 rpm is greater for the same span of time than the engine's fuel requirement at 4000 rpm. Alcohol kits that only use a boost reference will still provide the same amount of fuel (alcohol) at 4000 as they would at 5000.

Simply put, at lower rpm given the same boost level, more of your fuel is coming from methanol than at high rpm with the same boost level.

Is this a problem? Not really when you can tune your gasoline side (ecm) to compensate.

That's a good point I've never thought too much about.
I used to program my own chips, don't anymore since using the GenII..but, I'm not sure you can compensate for the gasoline side (ecm) like you mentioned though. The PE table are referenced via rpm..but if you have "X" amount of meth spraying in at 4k rpms and the same "X" amount of meth at 5k rpms (since the boost level is the same) if you progrma more fuel at 4k rpms you'll just be pig rich..if you cut fuel you'll be just to the point you make (more meth than gas at low rpms...not that it a bad thing though..just not an even percentage thru the rpm band).
I guess you could play with the MAF table since you should have a different MAF reading at 4k vs 5k...but your still stuck with "X" amount of meth at both rpms...so your kinda stuck.... very good point!
So far this has not been an issue for me, but I suppose if someone is having some stumble or some radical jump in AFR thats something to consider.
I've got wb tracking with the GenII so it automatically adjusts the gas fueling to match the programmed afr no matter how much meth is spraying.

 

[Razor]

Cant use the MAF on a Buick becuase its pinned at 255 on anything making power.

How bout this, look at the VE table on your aftermarket computer and what the injectors are doing during WOT. You'll see they change very little. Meaning the fuel at 4k, 5k, 6k varies little. Probably less than 5 percent. Let alone, the alky system only provides 15% of that fueling.. so the other 85 comes from the fuel.. and control from vehicles ECM.

And when racing, when your dialed in your rpm's should only vary like 600 keeping the motor in its sweet spot making power. Loose converters will give less drop.

So a fixed amount of alky at a fixed amount of boost.. dial in the air fuel with your injectors. Easy. 9's are yours

Its like waxing your vehicle antenna thinking the car will go faster as the antenna creates less drag.

Prove me wrong in real life.


Now.. On Fords with Eatons.. way different story.. start another thread as boost is not flat on a blower.. like a 2003 Cobra.

 

[Pablo]

Cant use the MAF on a Buick becuase its pinned at 255 on anything making power.

How bout this, look at the VE table on your aftermarket computer and what the injectors are doing during WOT. You'll see they change very little. Meaning the fuel at 4k, 5k, 6k varies little. Probably less than 5 percent. Let alone, the alky system only provides 15% of that fueling.. so the other 85 comes from the fuel.. and control from vehicles ECM.

And when racing, when your dialed in your rpm's should only vary like 600 keeping the motor in its sweet spot making power. Loose converters will give less drop.

So a fixed amount of alky at a fixed amount of boost.. dial in the air fuel with your injectors. Easy. 9's are yours

Its like waxing your vehicle antenna thinking the car will go faster as the antenna creates less drag.

Prove me wrong in real life.


Now.. On Fords with Eatons.. way different story.. start another thread as boost is not flat on a blower.. like a 2003 Cobra.

Wait, are you saying that in reality a progressive system doesn't really do that much during a quarter mile run?
Is Julio now advocating the use of a non progressive system?

I'm glad my point about a quarter mile run not extensively proving a system's capabilities was taken. :biggrin:

 

[Pablo]

That's a good point I've never thought too much about.
I used to program my own chips, don't anymore since using the GenII..but, I'm not sure you can compensate for the gasoline side (ecm) like you mentioned though. The PE table are referenced via rpm..but if you have "X" amount of meth spraying in at 4k rpms and the same "X" amount of meth at 5k rpms (since the boost level is the same) if you progrma more fuel at 4k rpms you'll just be pig rich..if you cut fuel you'll be just to the point you make (more meth than gas at low rpms...not that it a bad thing though..just not an even percentage thru the rpm band).
I guess you could play with the MAF table since you should have a different MAF reading at 4k vs 5k...but your still stuck with "X" amount of meth at both rpms...so your kinda stuck.... very good point!
So far this has not been an issue for me, but I suppose if someone is having some stumble or some radical jump in AFR thats something to consider.
I've got wb tracking with the GenII so it automatically adjusts the gas fueling to match the programmed afr no matter how much meth is spraying.

With the stock code you are screwed either way. You peg 255 and then you have no control except but with the pe fuel adder which is only referenced to RPM and nothing more. If you are pushing a lot more air than 255 then you have a very wide range of engine operation where you have fixed fueling based upon Rpm. This is pretty much impossible to tune. I tried. I spent a lot of time trying to bandaid the stock code and found it impossible to rid myself of transitional knock.
The problem wasn't overly rich AFR at low boost 255+ gm/sec... in fact it both overly rich and overly lean depending on the situation. The alcohol once full boost was attained was substantial enough that it reduced my gasoline requirements significantly. In the rise to full boost, the methanol would either lag behind or be too far ahead of what the engine needed depending on how fast the boost rose. This is because an electric motor pushing a column of fluid from a stand still into an intake tract and then all the way to the cylinder takes time.
So I could tune it to deliver enough methanol, in time, for a solid punch of the throttle but for moderate boost increases you see daily driving had the methanol delivering way too much way too soon... this is because I had it tuned to keep up with a sharp rise in boost instead of a moderate rise. Had I tuned it for a moderate rise I would have gotten transitional knock on kickdowns. Even when I had it tuned ok for a WOT blast from a dead stop, it would be too lean on a kickdown from highway speed (much quicker spool from highway speed). This is why I experimented with a WOT microswitch tapped into the test button.

Hope this makes sense.

With the GEN II and extender chip w/ wideband tracking all of this is in the past. Car runs awesome.

When it comes down to it, I think the above (gen II and extender) is the best system to compensate for most alcohol systems.

I would have probably liked to have tried a system with a tps input in addition to the map input. That could have possibly allowed me to fix my problems with the stock code. I can't say for sure without testing but with a TPS you now have a "predictive" quality to your alcohol kit since if you go WOT you can assume you are gonna need that pump to start doing its thing a lot sooner. The rpm input would also help for kick downs but I don't know how quickly that system(pump, alcohol transit time) could keep up. I'd have to test that in reality. It might work very well.. the more I think about it, the more I like the concept for cars that have limited ecm tunability.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

To the original poster, it appears as if no one on here is using the Cooling Mist or Devils Own kits, I haven't read a post from a user yet. I personally like plug and play type kits with customer service specific to my car so Cooling Mist and Devils Own need to start the new year with some major sales to get in the game here.

Also, 25psi of boost is not getting hotter at 5k vs 4k so however much you have spraying at 4k to cool temps down to repel knock is enough for 5k. If your inlet temps are in the 60's and you are knocking running 14:1, that's the time to add more fuel not alky.

 

[Pablo]

To the original poster, it appears as if no one on here is using the Cooling Mist or Devils Own kits, I haven't read a post from a user yet. I personally like plug and play type kits with customer service specific to my car so Cooling Mist and Devils Own need to start the new year with some major sales to get in the game here.

Also, 25psi of boost is not getting hotter at 5k vs 4k so however much you have spraying at 4k to cool temps down to repel knock is enough for 5k. If your inlet temps are in the 60's and you are knocking running 14:1, that's the time to add more fuel not alky.

Way to oversimplify things. That wasn't the point of the discussion regarding boost vs alky flow vs rpm.
But since you bring that aspect up, you're wrong. If you theoretically had barely enough alky at 4k rpms to suppress knock, you'll likely knock at 5000 even if intake temps remain the same if you were to have the same cylinder pressures for both rpm points. Alky has an anti detonant effect in the chamber because of its higher octane, and, if there is any liquid alky left, chamber cooling. Charge cooling is only one part of the equation (albeit an important part).
In the case of 25 psi not being hotter at 5000 rpm vs 4000, also, oversimplified and in many instances incorrect. As turbos reach their airflow limits, their efficiency goes down. As efficiency goes down, temperature rises. If your turbo flows enough air for 4000 rpm at 25 psi, and starts to get to the edge of its efficiency range at 5000 rpm 25 psi, then you are infact going to heat the air more and will need more charge cooling to compensate.

This is splitting hairs but has to be said because you have given out incorrect information.

 

[Razor]

Wait, are you saying that in reality a progressive system doesn't really do that much during a quarter mile run?
Is Julio now advocating the use of a non progressive system?

I'm glad my point about a quarter mile run not extensively proving a system's capabilities was taken. :biggrin:

No.. here your wrong. One issue is getting to the target boost.. this is where progressive controllers are needed. The next issue.. especially on a Turbo Buick is the 255 limit. Meaning the injector duty cycle stays the same past the 255. So if the car is set to lets say 19 PSI boost, you have X amount of alcohol flowing. Now when the boost is raised to 24 PSI.. the progressive kit automatically raises the volume of the system. And if it creeps/spikes to 28 PSI.. there you go.. one more addition to the volume. This also assummes the system in place has the capability to increase delivery volume= proper system design. :redface:

 

[Razor]

Also, 25psi of boost is not getting hotter at 5k vs 4k so however much you have spraying at 4k to cool temps down to repel knock is enough for 5k. If your inlet temps are in the 60's and you are knocking running 14:1, that's the time to add more fuel not alky.

In laymans terms. True. But nobody races at 4k

 

[Razor]

When it comes down to it, I think the above (gen II and extender) is the best system to compensate for most alcohol systems.

I would have probably liked to have tried a system with a tps input in addition to the map input. That could have possibly allowed me to fix my problems with the stock code. I can't say for sure without testing but with a TPS you now have a "predictive" quality to your alcohol kit since if you go WOT you can assume you are gonna need that pump to start doing its thing a lot sooner. The rpm input would also help for kick downs but I don't know how quickly that system(pump, alcohol transit time) could keep up. I'd have to test that in reality. It might work very well.. the more I think about it, the more I like the concept for cars that have limited ecm tunability.

A Turbotweak chip would have fixed your problems with the stock code

As far as best system.. depends on goals. I would say the FAST XFI is better for racing. For a street car, the GenII is nice. Some would argue that Motec would be the best.. its a $$$ thing.

 

[Blazer406]

Amazing.... the OP wanted people with experience with CM or DO.... after four pages of replies (nearly all off topic including mine) I only see one reply of someone (on a turbo Buick) running a DO kit.... and one that used to run a DO kit....but has since ...... for one reason or another.... now isn't.

This thread could have been 2 replies..... instead of 4 pages.....:frown:

That should be all the info one needs to make an accurate and informed decision IMHO.