Bad lifter(s) or oil problem?

[nicad]

Just finished a new build and having loud valve train clacking noise. Specs:
4.1 block #291
0.040" over hyper pistons
Turbo crank
Two dot rods
Champion ported iron heads, sprung for roller
Ported intake
Comp SK69-300-8 roller cam/lifters and chain w/stock cam tensioner spring
HS 1.6 roller rockers (~1.5 threads out the bottom at 1/2 turn preload)
Pushrods (SUM-1458150) 8.150" length checked with adj rod
All new components except the crank and rods.

Everything assembled with assembly lube.
I primed the oil system with a drill-motor primer for a minute or two and got around 40 psi. I know it's pumping cause I forgot to connect the turbo drain line at first and it dumped some oil on the ground real fast!!

Finished assembly and it fired right up but had very loud clacking under the driver side valve cover. Pulled the cover and checked the rockers and found cylinder #1 and #5 intake lifters were not pumping up all the way. Ran it another 5-10 minutes from 1500rpm to idle and it didn't get any better.
Let it sit for a day and fired it back up. Dead silent! It fixed itself!
BUT then within a minute of running the clacking slowly came back to just as bad.
Cold start oil pressure is 58psi, and hot idle is around 23psi.

Double checked preload on the entire bank and all checked out OK, but now both intake and exhaust lifters on cylinders #1 and #5 are not pumping up. While idling around 700rpm, I can push on those 4 rockers and compress the lifters as it's running and I can feel them "hammering" as they rock! None of the other lifters do this, they are all pumped up solid and run smooth.

There is some oil pooling on top of the head on the driver's side, but there's not much actual flow back to the drain. The passenger side head has more oil pooling and more flow, which tells me it's getting more oil up through the pushrods on the passenger side than the driver side.

The car is in another town, hard to work on very often. Next thing I'm going to try is pull the rockers and run the drill motor primer and see if I'm getting any/much oil up through the pushrods. Since they are roller rockers, they don't spray oil like the stock ones do. They capture the oil in the adjustment nut and and direct it internally to the roller bearing.

So my questions are:
1) Is this a case of having 4x bad lifters from Comp (which seems common) or do I have other oil delivery issues?
2) Can the lifters not "pump up" yet still deliver oil through the pushrods, or is there usually a blockage that prevents any oil from getting into/past them?
3) Do the lifters need to be moving in the bore for the oil to properly get into them?

Thanks!
-Colin

 

[earlbrown]

When you put in cam bearings, did you use bearings that have a groove in them. The fact you have some oil on the DS head makes me think there's a fluid path... are you sure it's not just there from filling up the engine or do you know it's there because it was pumped there?

On my 4.1 I grooved the block with a Dremal tool to make sure I got oil to the DS.

 

[nicad]

I did fill oil from the DS valve cover, so the pooling could easily be left from that. Like I said there's very little if any flow while running. :-/
All the bearings were already installed in the block when I got it, so I can not answer the grooving question with any certainty. Now I'm wondering....
Does this block casting 291 use the cam bearing to transfer the oil to the DS or does the block have a transfer path cast/drilled in it?
However, cylinder #3 lifters seem to be pumped up fine, so that means at least some oil is getting to the DS lifter valley, correct?

 

[earlbrown]

#3 lifters might just be stuck from being new. I always get a couple of precision sockets and squish mine in a vice before building an engine.

Would you happen to have a receipt for the cam bearings, or at least a part number?

 

[nicad]

I do not, the block was purchased "from a guy who had it build by a shop" out of state.
I tried to go over everything before building it up, everything seemed done correctly, but we all know how that goes. I did not know to look for this groove at the time.
More research with your direction into the cam bearing / block grooving and I have a strong (and bad) feeling that you're right- there probably isn't any oil properly getting to the DS bank.

Next question- If this is the case: can those lifters, lifter bores, pushrods, and rockers possibly be salvageable after running essentially w/o oil pressure for about 20 minutes at low rpm?

 

[Nick Micale]

When you put in cam bearings, did you use bearings that have a groove in them. The fact you have some oil on the DS head makes me think there's a fluid path... are you sure it's not just there from filling up the engine or do you know it's there because it was pumped there?

On my 4.1 I grooved the block with a Dremal tool to make sure I got oil to the DS.

If you did not use grooved cam bearings, and there is a very good chance Comp did not groove the front cam journal so no oil will get to the DS like Earl stated.

I found out the hard way Comp does not groove their cams any longer as the cams are "assumed" to only go into 109 blocks?

 

[nicad]

I know for a fact that the cam is not grooved.
Just to do the easiest troubleshooting first, I should be able to pull the DS rockers, spin the oil pump with a drill (I have the primer adapter), and see if any of the pushrods deliver oil correct?

 

[bison]

If you did not use grooved cam bearings, and there is a very good chance Comp did not groove the front cam journal so no oil will get to the DS like Earl stated.

I found out the hard way Comp does not groove their cams any longer as the cams are "assumed" to only go into 109 blocks?

This only applies to 69-000-5 cores. The odd fire 67-000-5 still has has the groove. Fwiw the 140 block casting has a groove in the cam bore like the 109.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[bison]

I know for a fact that the cam is not grooved.
Just to do the easiest troubleshooting first, I should be able to pull the DS rockers, spin the oil pump with a drill (I have the primer adapter), and see if any of the pushrods deliver oil correct?

If you know it's not grooved but aren't sure if there is a groove behind the cam bearing that's reason enough to pull it and check over everything


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[earlbrown]

Yep, looks like the engine's got to come out... before you're forced to take it out.

Years ago when I talked to Comp they said that flat tappet cams were grooved and rollers were not.

Granted they've probably changed plants in Mexico a few times since then.. and that's also assUming the 'tech' guy at comp knew what he was talking about.

 

[bison]

Yep, looks like the engine's got to come out... before you're forced to take it out.

Years ago when I talked to Comp they said that flat tappet cams were grooved and rollers were not.

Granted they've probably changed plants in Mexico a few times since then.. and that's also assUming the 'tech' guy at comp knew what he was talking about.

At the same rate companies switch plants in Mexico, 10,000 unqualified people work on these cars. Lots of what happened here scenarios because of it.


BPE2013@hotmail.com

 

[ek02]

You will need TA1556 rear grooved cam bearings, or you will have to grind a crossover passage. One option that may be easier is to just pull the cam and have it grooved. I am not sure anyone can do this after the cam has been hardened, but I think it would be possible with the right equipment. The solid front journal with the TA rear grooved bearings have more surface area at the front journal and will not wear as fast, but will take lots of work to pull the engine and take it apart.

 

[fastblackracing]

You could also consider adding an oil transfer tube at the rear of the block from the right side oil galley to the left side oil galley. This would get oil to the drivers side lifers and rockers. Pull the trans,converter and flexplate to get to these oil galley plugs.

 

[mikestertwo]

You could also consider adding an oil transfer tube at the rear of the block from the right side oil galley to the left side oil galley. This would get oil to the drivers side lifers and rockers. Pull the trans,converter and flexplate to get to these oil galley plugs.

I did this on one of my motors. It worked out quite well. I used two 90* fittings with a 3/8" transfer tube. Make sure you check the clearance to the flywheel.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

same way i do the oiling in my stage 2 . works well with the transfer tube

 

[ek02]

Best idea yet, and you dont have to take the engine apart.

 

[nicad]

Followup, since most threads die once the solution is found!
As suggested, I confirmed was not getting oil transferred to the DS galley. That answers the questions of if a grooved bearing was used on the build.. it was not!!
This engine is transplanted into a Porsche 914 so accessing the back of the block was going to be easier than pulling the cam and everything associated with that.
I installed the external crossover and it now works like a champ! Oil flow to the DS head and no more lifter clacking. Go figure.
I went with an 8" length of 5/16" pre-made brake line and 90* fittings. Plenty clearance behind the flywheel.
It's the only size I could find in that length range. Getting the old plugs out was a PITA but the rest went smoothly.

 

[earlbrown]

Odd. Since the engine was just built the plugs should have came right out.

...unless it was build and they didn't R&R the galley plugs.

 

[fastblackracing]

Awesome, glad that worked out for you. Sounds like an interesting build you have going on, wouldnt mind seeing some more pics of it. Thanks for the follow up.

 

[EVIL]

Any update on the build?

D