Alky kit

[bigdwg03]

Ive noticed a lot of guys are running knock sensors and a/f ratio monitors is there anyone who makes an alky kit that would take input from these two sorces and add alky as the engine needs it automatically? Is it even possible?
thanks

 

[Boost231]

look into the ISAC. thats about as close as your going to get.

http://www.isacalky.com/

get a razors kit with the ISAC controler.

 

[JayC]

The ISAC will correct it's curve +/- 15% based on the target air fuel ratios you set up.

 

[salvageV6]

It shouldn't be that hard to make, a counter for the knock counts and on the fly correction when they increment.

I made one on the bench but didn't get enough KR to worry about implementing it.

I used analog real time 80's CMOS stuff since it was all nanosecond correction times and no PIC or mini-computer chip delay times and software implementing to worry about.

Used increment and decrement counters to raise and lower the correction over time.

I now use the ISAC which works just fine and has plenty of adjustment and includes boost control and some safeguards.

 

[bigdwg03]

How does the isac contol boost? Is it like the ams500 and 1000 where u has silenoids? I went to the website doesn't say much on how it actually works and very few pics

 

[JayC]

How does the isac contol boost? Is it like the ams500 and 1000 where u has silenoids? I went to the website doesn't say much on how it actually works and very few pics

It works as a single solenoid system or a dual solenoid system. It also can be used with CO2 if you add a second pressure sensor. All of this functionality is built into the unit.

We dont carry the solenoids simply because we dont have a good enough source to sell them for what others sell them for so when people purchase the unit, I just give them the part number and vendor for the solenoid and they can pick up however many they need.

 

[Quiky One]

http://alkycontrol.com/

Plug and play! I love the look of the ISAC but damn it looks confusing!

Jason

 

[Razor]

Ive noticed a lot of guys are running knock sensors and a/f ratio monitors is there anyone who makes an alky kit that would take input from these two sorces and add alky as the engine needs it automatically? Is it even possible?
thanks

The problem with this is false knock. If you get false knock you flood the engine.

Second problem is is alcohol is used for knock suppression not air fuel trimming. You use gasoline to tune the engine and alcohol to stop the knock. Realize that 15-20% of your fueling is alcohol, the other 80-85% is gasoline. So the gasoline is whats controlled. There are chips and computers that will correct AF under WOT. The XFI from FAST is an example.

Once you have a car dialed in, it doesnt need more alcohol. Meaning there is no reason to increase its volume given a certain level of boost. My kit is set to deliver more than is required right out the box, you can then trim it down as you see fit. In the end its all about tuning. There is no automatic anything as all tuning requires human input

I wont get into swinging on auto corrections. Which is the main reason some dont use it. Example engine misfires.. cuases a lean condition.. computer starts to open injectors to cure lean condition(misfire).. all of a sudden now its too rich... so computer starts to pull out fuel... then its too lean.. and back and forth until the engine settles. Perfect example of this is using a 2step with the correction "on". You'll go nuts tuning it.

Slowest part of any system is the pump. As there is a time lag to develop and reduce pressure/volume. Only way around the time lag is to use fuel injectors above the ports on the runners. I wont get into the costs associated with this. At that point a C16 switch fuel system makes more sense.

 

[wickedtt]

The problem with this is false knock. If you get false knock you flood the engine.

Second problem is is alcohol is used for knock suppression not air fuel trimming. You use gasoline to tune the engine and alcohol to stop the knock. Realize that 15-20% of your fueling is alcohol, the other 80-85% is gasoline. So the gasoline is whats controlled. There are chips and computers that will correct AF under WOT. The XFI from FAST is an example.

Once you have a car dialed in, it doesnt need more alcohol. Meaning there is no reason to increase its volume given a certain level of boost. My kit is set to deliver more than is required right out the box, you can then trim it down as you see fit. In the end its all about tuning. There is no automatic anything as all tuning requires human input

I wont get into swinging on auto corrections. Which is the main reason some dont use it. Example engine misfires.. cuases a lean condition.. computer starts to open injectors to cure lean condition(misfire).. all of a sudden now its too rich... so computer starts to pull out fuel... then its too lean.. and back and forth until the engine settles. Perfect example of this is using a 2step with the correction "on". You'll go nuts tuning it.

Slowest part of any system is the pump. As there is a time lag to develop and reduce pressure/volume. Only way around the time lag is to use fuel injectors above the ports on the runners. I wont get into the costs associated with this. At that point a C16 switch fuel system makes more sense.

I'm trying to understand this, so are you saying that wideband tracking ex: powerlogger and TTchip 6.0 makes tuning harder?

 

[salvageV6]

False knock is a flaw or problem that needs to be corrected.

Using a combination of A/F and KR control you would easily spot that as well.

Fixing the problem is a must as false KR pulls timing on pretty much any alky. control scenario using a KR sensor and timing control.

Obviously the O.P.'s idea is a good one.

I always thought the stock longblock cars running 11.0 A/F ratios with big pumps were the ones flooding their engines.

 

[bigdwg03]

All this computer stuff is so complicated and gives me a headache lol can't some one just invent a computer you plug in and you don't have to tune? Just take the input from the sensors and automatically adjust for optimum a/f ratio and 0 knock? It can't be that hard I mean I'm posting this from my phone while I'm on a call and downloading stolen music!

 

[Razor]

I'm trying to understand this, so are you saying that wideband tracking ex: powerlogger and TTchip 6.0 makes tuning harder?

Can you imaging two different systems trying to correct at the same time?

Understand a wideband has a lag built based on distance between it and the engine. So when it starts going lean, the computer starts to increase fuel.. it may have only needed 3% but it goes 5,10,15% until the target is reached.. now it goes richer.. and starts to pull fuel.. back and forth like a pendulum.. eventually settling. Anyone who has ever tuned using correction will be subject to this.

Now imagine two different systems fighting each other. Its a mess. datalog pressure.. if its steady, then use fuel(chip,computer,etc) to make the correction. Allow only one Captain on your ship

 

[Razor]

All this computer stuff is so complicated and gives me a headache lol can't some one just invent a computer you plug in and you don't have to tune? Just take the input from the sensors and automatically adjust for optimum a/f ratio and 0 knock? It can't be that hard I mean I'm posting this from my phone while I'm on a call and downloading stolen music!

Good luck. Never will happen.

You dont want to tune, leave the car stock that way somebody has done it for you.

 

[salvageV6]

One would think if the chipmakers could ignore false KR with a simple timer routine some alky. gooroo could too. :smile:

Maybe a 555 timer and the gear selector input could easily be implemented to help tune around false KR, but then again getting rid of false KR is a much better way to tune the car since no timing will be pulled once the chip decides it's time to stop ignoring KR. Fix the problem don't let it hamper a good safety feature.

Damm all those successful A/F wideband tuned cars must have a lot of issues. :biggrin:

I wonder if the stock O2 sensor, water temp. sender, and the MAF sensor were all fighting each other inside the stock ECM?

Looks like the "one captain" is blindly headed toward an iceberg.

I don't want to tune trying to fit a straight line simplistic progressive controller into a scenario where a curve certainly would be a MUCH better fit.

 

[bigdwg03]

The factory computers pull timing as it senses knock why can't you change that to add alky as it picks up knock? I'm kinda new here can someone explain what false knock is and what causes it?

 

[Razor]

The factory computers pull timing as it senses knock why can't you change that to add alky as it picks up knock? I'm kinda new here can someone explain what false knock is and what causes it?

Any mechanical noise can set of a knock sensor. Example is downpipe hitting the control arm, loose/broken motor mount, maf pipe hitting the alt bracket, noisy cam, noisy timing chain, anything that can go "tinggggg" will show up as knock. as the knock sensor is designed to pickup metalic noises. My 2004r transmission would show 30+ plus degree's of knock on the 1/2 shift at high boost. the fix, put knock ignore on the chip past 45 MPH.

Lets say the car is tuned for 20 psi boost and it requires 1 ounce per second to not knock.. If your boost is 20 PSI.. and your injecting 1 ounce per second why would you need more? So since the methanol is a fuel, and you pickup some false knock at 20 PSI.. now it shoots 1.5,2.0 ounces per second trying to fix the knock.. when it does this the motor loads up and gets rich. Now you need the computer to pull fuel out to makeup for the extra .5-1.0 ounces of fluid shot into the engine. See where this is going.

Try a basic system and go from there. Most who never have tried injection get into speculation as to what would work better. Not all ideas.. becuase they sound good on paper, work out. They work in theory but not in practice.

And careful whose advice you get and their experience tuning a racing engine. Plenty of internet bench racers that have virtually very little or no track experience. :wink: .

 

[bigdwg03]

Wouldn't it be better to use boost as a referance rather than time? Using per pound of boost instead of seconds especially on a street driven type car?

 

[wickedtt]

Can you imaging two different systems trying to correct at the same time?

Understand a wideband has a lag built based on distance between it and the engine. So when it starts going lean, the computer starts to increase fuel.. it may have only needed 3% but it goes 5,10,15% until the target is reached.. now it goes richer.. and starts to pull fuel.. back and forth like a pendulum.. eventually settling. Anyone who has ever tuned using correction will be subject to this.

Now imagine two different systems fighting each other. Its a mess. datalog pressure.. if its steady, then use fuel(chip,computer,etc) to make the correction. Allow only one Captain on your ship

Understandable , so what tool do you recommend tuning with when using your alky and the stock ecm??

 

[Razor]

Wouldn't it be better to use boost as a referance rather than time? Using per pound of boost instead of seconds especially on a street driven type car?

Thats how they're done now. If you look at the picture I posted you'll see the squiggly line is alky pressure. The blue line is boost. You can see at the 4 second mark, the boost creeped up a little and so did the squiggly line. More boost.. more alky. Simple and effective.

 

[Razor]

Understandable , so what tool do you recommend tuning with when using your alky and the stock ecm??

Power logger and a pressure transducer. If your looking for data. And... have a wideband in use.