Alky kit hurting performance????

[Quik]

I know this isnt your typical buick quesiton. I bought a Alky kit from Julio and it works fine no issues. The issue i have is i tried to use it on dyno and it sent my AFR into the 9s. Now before you suggest things in your head. My combo is a 8.8cr 4.8 LS1 style motor. I have a PT88 turbo on it, i have Motron 60s with my fuel PSI they are 73# injectors and i have a 1:1 regualtor. I tune with HPTuners and fairly decent tuner. Our motors like 11.0 AFR as Ideal anythng past 11.5 and your little to lean for safety. also some dont say to go past 22* timing, Most ppl in the LS world run 15* tops I currently run 21* on dyno. My fuel is 40% E85 60% 93. My truck made 700rwhp on a fluttering 16psi. [5psi WG spring]

now onto my issue....for those that have tuned and used Meth injection when did you realize you needed it? i know your motors are different i understand that. I have a dual nozzle kit its a M10 and M15 nozzle my meth kit was setup for my combo with use of a 408CI motor. the 4.8 is only a temp motor till i can replace my 408. I know Meth helps lower IATs but on dyno i only seen a gain of 4* of IAT temps that is no meth just thru my FMIC. I never had KR.....My question is Id love to make 800rwhp which shouldnt be too far off. I gain roughly 29rwhp for every PSI of boost. Now would you pull fuel out above 210 kpa and set the PAC to so its in use at this KPA and use meth for fueling? Im stil stock internals and dont want to hurt this motor but am greedy and would like to take use of my Alky kit.

bascially im asking how are ppl using meth and how would you do it for this build? others use meth at much less boost but my setup seems to not need it. I want more numbers since im already strongest 4.8 thats nationaly recorded and was looking to get more out of it.

 

[Razor]

Methanol is a fuel. When you inject it, the AFR will drop. And when you run a twin nozzle you are asking for a huge drop in AFR. Meaning the motor is in need of it.

Most LS1 tuners watch for spark knock activity, then add meth to quell that. If you dont have spark knock, reduce the meth. You may only need one nozzle instead of two. And it may be the smaller one. As every motor is different.

Guy who runs California 90 octane at 16 PSI will need a lot more meth than the guy running 100 octane at 16 PSI. Compression ratio, cylinder head design(quench), piston design, etc all contribute to how much is required. And since your mixing fuels with a higher octane fuel, things change. Vs having a constant.

The statement is if the motor doesnt knock, and the IAT's are low..you technically dont need methanol injection. If you increase timing or boost levels to where they start to create a knock condition, then the meth comes in saving the day and eliminates the issue.

The E85 also runs at a lot lower stoich than pump gas does. And it requires a greater volume than 93. So the 11.0:1 target is out the window. Especially with E85 and twin nozzle methanol injection. Probably looking at a 10:0:1 target.

As far as setting up the PAC, roll it in under lower boost levels that way when your at 4-5 PSi and let it ramp up. Another thing is IAT on a dyno is way different than IAT on a track.

Your more than welcome to call me if you wish,

 

[TurboDave]

Methanol is a fuel. When you inject it, the AFR will drop. And when you run a twin nozzle you are asking for a huge drop in AFR. Meaning the motor is in need of it.

I have a question, in my never ending endevour to learn more. And hopefully you wont find it too crazy, but...

When you say "When you inject it, the AFR will drop." do you mean a numberical drop (indicating richer) or do you mean a A/F ratio drop (indicating leaner).??

Thanks for the info.

 

[BlackMetal]

It runs richer, you're injecting a fuel, not air.

 

[Quik]

Methanol is a fuel. When you inject it, the AFR will drop. And when you run a twin nozzle you are asking for a huge drop in AFR. Meaning the motor is in need of it.

Most LS1 tuners watch for spark knock activity, then add meth to quell that. If you dont have spark knock, reduce the meth. You may only need one nozzle instead of two. And it may be the smaller one. As every motor is different.

Guy who runs California 90 octane at 16 PSI will need a lot more meth than the guy running 100 octane at 16 PSI. Compression ratio, cylinder head design(quench), piston design, etc all contribute to how much is required. And since your mixing fuels with a higher octane fuel, things change. Vs having a constant.

The statement is if the motor doesnt knock, and the IAT's are low..you technically dont need methanol injection. If you increase timing or boost levels to where they start to create a knock condition, then the meth comes in saving the day and eliminates the issue.

The E85 also runs at a lot lower stoich than pump gas does. And it requires a greater volume than 93. So the 11.0:1 target is out the window. Especially with E85 and twin nozzle methanol injection. Probably looking at a 10:0:1 target.

As far as setting up the PAC, roll it in under lower boost levels that way when your at 4-5 PSi and let it ramp up. Another thing is IAT on a dyno is way different than IAT on a track.

Your more than welcome to call me if you wish,

i knew meth was a fuel so thats why i was wondering if i could up the boost and shoot for my target hp and do it safey. So say at 18 or 20 psi would you shoot for a lower target afr on meth? I know when i was trying to use it, the dyno place air was filled with so much fuel it burned our eyes. I removed meth from the equation and that cured that. When i had used the meth on the street the truck felt strong but they dyno with no change showed it lost power thats why i was little confused.

here is another part of my equation at my current power level im at 102% IDC which i know is past Ideal. I have plenty of fuel supply but i know i need bigger injectors. I could raise base PSI and have little more room in the injectors but was wondering if you recomend using the Meth as the difference in fuel supply to feed the power at the higher levels. Thats sorta what i was tying to ask

 

[bison]

i knew meth was a fuel so thats why i was wondering if i could up the boost and shoot for my target hp and do it safey. So say at 18 or 20 psi would you shoot for a lower target afr on meth? I know when i was trying to use it, the dyno place air was filled with so much fuel it burned our eyes. I removed meth from the equation and that cured that. When i had used the meth on the street the truck felt strong but they dyno with no change showed it lost power thats why i was little confused.

here is another part of my equation at my current power level im at 102% IDC which i know is past Ideal. I have plenty of fuel supply but i know i need bigger injectors. I could raise base PSI and have little more room in the injectors but was wondering if you recomend using the Meth as the difference in fuel supply to feed the power at the higher levels. Thats sorta what i was tying to ask

You can start by removing a nozzle and checking a/f again or pulling some duty cycle till your back at 10.5:1. I wouldnt go much leaner with all that alky and E85. 10:1 might be better to start with with the fuels you are using and the power per hole you are making. Then creep up the boost. At 9.0:1 you are losing about 80-100hp in that application. You should be able to make well over 1000hp at sane boost levels. Id go for at least 120lb/hr injectors very soon. Sounds like a lot of fun

 

[Quik]

You can start by removing a nozzle and checking a/f again or pulling some duty cycle till your back at 10.5:1. I wouldnt go much leaner with all that alky and E85. 10:1 might be better to start with with the fuels you are using and the power per hole you are making. Then creep up the boost. At 9.0:1 you are losing about 80-100hp in that application. You should be able to make well over 1000hp at sane boost levels. Id go for at least 120lb/hr injectors very soon. Sounds like a lot of fun

with the cubic inch motor i have the numbers i have already are in question cause some think i have a larger cube since other larger motors at same psi level arent making the same numbers or they are making the same HP. I dont see the stock motor making 1000rwhp, they just arent that strong. powder'd rods and cast pistons. im still running TTY head bolts. Id just like to see a solid 10s pass with my combo. with an auto i think i would have that in the bag but with a T56 eh its iffy at moment.

I didnt think i was using enough E85 to affect my target AFR i know if i ran more of a percentage of E85 i would shoot for a different AFR. Just kinda stumped why i lost power using the meth when most swear by it. Unless i just dont need it being at my compression ratio

 

[Razor]

Just kinda stumped why i lost power using the meth when most swear by it. Unless i just dont need it being at my compression ratio

Your air fuel is too low to make any power. You need to lean out teh mixture and bring up the AFR. Once you do this, the power will come back.

Meth kits are octane kits. If you have additional octane, use it to make power. Running higher octane doesnt make more power by itself, but allows higher timing and boost than could be attained without. So using the meth kit.. dial in the afr, up the timing.. you will wake the motor up.. just keep an eye on knock, as this will tell you if you need more or less.

 

[Quik]

Your air fuel is too low to make any power. You need to lean out teh mixture and bring up the AFR. Once you do this, the power will come back.

Meth kits are octane kits. If you have additional octane, use it to make power. Running higher octane doesnt make more power by itself, but allows higher timing and boost than could be attained without. So using the meth kit.. dial in the afr, up the timing.. you will wake the motor up.. just keep an eye on knock, as this will tell you if you need more or less.

yea i seen that my AFR was rich when i was using it. i leaned truck from 10.4 when i made 702 with fluttering 16psi to a 11.0 afr on 14.5 psi and i was within 10 hp of my fluttering 16psi pull. my fuel table scales down as each psi level i reach. from 0 im at 14.7 and as boost rises i drop AFR and so does timing. my timing is leveled off at 21* at 120 g/cyl which means doesnt matter what boost level i run its locked there once it hits 120 g/cyl. which is safe since i tune for timing at higher psi. this way i know im safe down low. this has showed to be correct on the dyno.

now on the meth and say i shoot for 20psi what would you recomend afr? im going to probably back down timing to probably 18* or 19*. im tryng to keep my heads from lifting.

Julio....Jim aka parish even said that this kit would be tricky to tune for. if your wondering im the customer that you spec'd out a duplicate of Jim's kit for my build

 

[Razor]

A couple of things come to mind. One is you mention a fluttering 16 PSI.. it would be a good idea to get that sorted out and flatten your boost line.

The next thing is learning to tune meth injection is easiest at lower boost levels and lower volume levels. Every single person that starts with a twin nozzle setup at high boost always has issues. Kind of like you need to learn to walk before you run. Twin nozzles your running and tripping over your self.

An M15 nozzle is plenty for 700 RWHP on an LS1. I would cap of the M10 nozzle and run it on the M15 up to 15-17 PSI range and get the kit "figured out" Once you've gotten this far, reconnect the twin and go from there. See small changes to the knobs make huge changes to the system due to the large orfice your dealing with. So moving the knob from 5-6 or 6-7 make huge changes. If you have the dyno, T in a pressure guage into the alky line and watch the pressure on your pulls. Based on that pressure you make decisions and changes to your tuneup will also be impacted and you learn the system.

And... doing this on a message board is very hard.. you really should make the time and call me during the day and i'll walk you through it. When you dont know something.. pick up the phone and call the MFG..playing guess games.. will lift the head sooner than latter. On your applications you have a lot going on at once. And.. you need to simply things.

 

[Quik]

makes sense about whole high boost and dual nozzle. i had to step back down to 8psi and learn to tune from there orignally. i tried 15 off bat and it was a pain. So ill step down on lower boost and start playing with meth and seeing what gains are to be had.

as for my flutter. thats simple i need to install my larger WG spring. i had trippled my spring. Thanks for the help