Alcohol Injection/No intercooler!!

[Jerryl]

Very Interesting.
With the right code, there is hope.

 

[boostmaster]

Alky or Intercooler

Many people in this forum are unaware that the original hot air intakes were designed for use with alcohol injection. That's why the intake is divided and the runners turn. The concept was to give the alcohol time to atomize in the intake. Also the long runners contribute to low end torque. That's why in my and many others opinions there is no better intake for the hot air with alky than a full ported stocker. Alcohol besides cooling the intake charge adds fuel and octane something that an intercooler can't do. You can spray alky and run more boost with pump gas. Bet you can't add a bigger intercooler and run more boost with pump gas. As for running fast with a hot air it has already been proven it can be done just takes some careful tuning. I myself consistantly run 13.0's @ 16-18 psi on pump and alky. I haven't gotten good enough yet to turn the boost up so I can run 24-26 psi on my TA62 turbo and don't want to risk it anymore (already blown 2 pistons) until I get my diy alky kit tuned right.

 

[1QUICK85]

WOW, heres an old post.

 

[Jerryl]

WOW, heres an old post.

GREAT thing is, since these cars don't change much, so there is lots of info that never really becomes history. Kinda like building a SBC.

 

[1QUICK85]

I just meant it was cool to see it un-covered. Funny reading an old post that I started. Lots of good info in this post though. Good find. :biggrin:

 

[cool 84 2]

Many people in this forum are unaware that the original hot air intakes were designed for use with alcohol injection. That's why the intake is divided and the runners turn. The concept was to give the alcohol time to atomize in the intake. Also the long runners contribute to low end torque. That's why in my and many others opinions there is no better intake for the hot air with alky than a full ported stocker. Alcohol besides cooling the intake charge adds fuel and octane something that an intercooler can't do. You can spray alky and run more boost with pump gas. Bet you can't add a bigger intercooler and run more boost with pump gas. As for running fast with a hot air it has already been proven it can be done just takes some careful tuning. I myself consistantly run 13.0's @ 16-18 psi on pump and alky. I haven't gotten good enough yet to turn the boost up so I can run 24-26 psi on my TA62 turbo and don't want to risk it anymore (already blown 2 pistons) until I get my diy alky kit tuned right.

That's great. And with a little TA49 and only 15psi and street chip I was able to trap 110mph with a plugged catalytic convertor and nearly stock motor with an intercooler.

Do you really think the zip tubes are there for alky injection? It's usually not a good idea to hit a wall and turn 180 degrees with a wet design manifold. You get fallout when that happens. They were there for tuning according to Buick.

The only thing I agree with in this entire thread is the stock location 87 intercooler acts as a heater at part throttle. I'll take a frontmount over either stock location or alky any day.

I don't feel the need to argue as some people are set in their ways. Hopefully I'll have a new tranny later this year and will make it to the track with the new motor to see what it will run. And I'll even run with a huge handicap- no alky.

 

[Royal-T-Ltd]

That's great. And with a little TA49 and only 15psi and street chip I was able to trap 110mph with a plugged catalytic convertor and nearly stock motor with an intercooler.

How much does your car weigh? Thats a very fast trap speed for the info you provided 15psi on a 49 and with a low timing street chip.... wow you must've prayed to the turbo gods for that speed... What was your et? and whats it run now [i assume you took off your clogged cat]

 

[boostmaster]

How much does your car weigh? Thats a very fast trap speed for the info you provided 15psi on a 49 and with a low timing street chip.... wow you must've prayed to the turbo gods for that speed... What was your et? and whats it run now [i assume you took off your clogged cat]

It's been 5 yrs seen I've been on this board and the turbo gods have not smiled upon him ever again.

 

[cool 84 2]

How much does your car weigh? Thats a very fast trap speed for the info you provided 15psi on a 49 and with a low timing street chip.... wow you must've prayed to the turbo gods for that speed... What was your et? and whats it run now [i assume you took off your clogged cat]

It was a hair over 3,200lbs with 3/4 tank of gas. The only weight reduction was spare and jack removal and I guess you could count aftermarket rims. Oh yeah, and the stereo was stolen a few days prior lol.

It had a couple things, headers, downpipe, tiny 200-200 cam because I couldn't find a stocker. Other than that the heads were unported, intake was barely touched with a little port matching. But I did have a Spearco front mount. If you think about an 87 with the same mods, 110mph on pump gas doesn't seem that hard to do and some might think it's a little on the slow side.

It only went 12.9 not due to traction issues but the convertor wasn't letting it spool at all in first gear. I left the line WOT and the best 60' I could get was a 2.3. Farther down on the 110mph run it actually pushed the cat off the downpipe so it breathed a little better on the 110mph run. There was a guy from this board there with a 9 sec stage II car and he was actually impressed with what my car was running through the cat at low boost. This was all like 5 years ago.

I keep forgetting to do a sig in my new profile. I now have a 4.1L with a TA66, powerstroke IC, headers, 3"dp, ported and gutted intake, ported GN1s, 212-212 comp cam, 60lbers, and an Innovative external gate.

If you look down the hotair section you will see where I posted pics of my newest setup.

 

[cool 84 2]

It's been 5 yrs seen I've been on this board and the turbo gods have not smiled upon him ever again.

Well maybe one day you will be able to match my pumpgas times with your alky tune. It's only been 5 years. Doesn't matter though, if you succeed, it just might motivate me enough to take the new motor to the track and then you'll be 5 years behind again.

 

[1QUICK85]

What are you guys arguing about?
The guy says he ran 12.9 @ 110 mph. Well that is very believeable in my book. His mods when he ran that seem to be on the light side, but maybe it was cold out. But, none the less why argue about it? Jealous?
My 305 Iroc-z runs a 14.882 @ 92.2 in the quarter mile. Want to argue that?

 

[raflyer]

I doubt the alky will make up for no intercooler. Also, I can't imagine pulling the intercooler off and fabbing a pipe to make it work since you already paid for it and it's functional. Why not add alky on top of the intercooler? Of course it's going to be harder to reach your goal without an intercooler. While I'm a big fan of alcohol injection, an intercooler is always there, never runs out, and is maintenance free. Don't forget, the alky displaces some of the air. If I had a choice of one or the other it would be intercooler hands down but why not do both?

ALKY DOES NOT DISPLACE AIR, repeat 10 times and write it down if necessary :wink:

A chemist and engineer tested, verified, and posted results of this data. I will find it if you don't believe me. Oh, and i used to think the same thing :biggrin:

 

[cool 84 2]

ALKY DOES NOT DISPLACE AIR, repeat 10 times and write it down if necessary :wink:

A chemist and engineer tested, verified, and posted results of this data. I will find it if you don't believe me. Oh, and i used to think the same thing :biggrin:

Whether it displaces air or not does not matter. I figured if it did, it wasn't much but it does take up some space in the charge air. My point was that you will go faster with an intercooler and even faster with an intercooler and alky. I personally don't like feeding the car a 20% mixture of alky because when something goes wrong, and it will eventually, you're looking at blown headgaskets or worse. I use alky to run a few extra psi on the street but never ever tune it to the edge. Most of my frustration is at the guys saying alky takes the place of an intercooler while they have never run an intercooler. I've done both seperate and combined.

 

[BRAD_PADGETT]

Whether it displaces air or not does not matter. I figured if it did, it wasn't much but it does take up some space in the charge air. My point was that you will go faster with an intercooler and even faster with an intercooler and alky. I personally don't like feeding the car a 20% mixture of alky because when something goes wrong, and it will eventually, you're looking at blown headgaskets or worse. I use alky to run a few extra psi on the street but never ever tune it to the edge. Most of my frustration is at the guys saying alky takes the place of an intercooler while they have never run an intercooler. I've done both seperate and combined.

I am one of those who have decided to go Alky instead of an intercooler. I agree 100% with the above quote from cool 84 2. The only reason for going Alky vs. intercooler for me was cost and I do not need to go higher than 20 lbs boost because I do not race. A Razor kit allows this on a hot air. The other reason is because I could not find an intercooler for a hot air. I have not tuned it yet for boost above but I may be able to get to 23lbs.

The bottom line is an intercooler with Alky is the way to go. Cool 84 2 is right on. My 2 cents. Brad

 

[Jerryl]

First off, Bruce P. is one of the most respected guys in the TR community and he has done TONS of research. Some of it, most of us will never take the time to do and document. I find his finding inetesting, but we really need to read it closely. He also specifically mentions the words; "Traffic, heat soaked, front mount, code for compentation".

Here is my opinion regarding IC and Meth;
IC does not replace meth, and Meth does not replace an IC.
IC cools the air and meth also raises the octane.
So, in my mind (note that I am FAR from an expert), taking into account the variable of a heat soaked intercooler in a stock IC set-up, Alky in itself does not replace oxygen, one of the 3 VITAL ingredients for burn/power.

In the end, it is ALL ABOUT gr./sec, specifically the air that is the trapped combustion chamber. Sure you can run 20 psi on both an IC car and a HA. Sure you can have the same temps going into the chamber on both set-ups.

But, everything else being equal, an IC'd car has the advantage of a "cooler air only" charge entering the intake manifold, and with that denser air, the gr./sec entering the chamber is higher (read "more oxygen/cubic inch"). The IC'd car will also require less meth to get the temp down to the same temp, indicating that the charge was in fact cooler/denser/"more O2/cubic inch")

The simplest and pretty much the only way (in my mind) to chemically MATCH an IC'd car given similar air volume at constant pressure, is the addition of O2, in something like an oxygenated fuel

It is ALL about gr/sec of air going into the intake port.

 

[boostmaster]

But, everything else being equal, an IC'd car has the advantage of a "cooler air only" charge entering the intake manifold, and with that denser air, the gr./sec entering the chamber is higher (read "more oxygen/cubic inch"). The IC'd car will also require less meth to get the temp down to the same temp, indicating that the charge was in fact cooler/denser/"more O2/cubic inch")


As a basis of thermo dynamics alcohol is a liquid intercooler. And a far more efficient one than an air to air intercooler. The only advantage of an air to air is that it's maintenance free, it's on all the time and leaves very few variables to deal with. Now going back to the law of thermal dynamics hot flows to cold and warmer temps will cool faster than cooler temps. So hotter charge air will cool much faster and greater than temps that are cooler. To simplify things maybe in Highschool some of you did this experiment. Put 2 glasses of water in the freezer 1 warm water and 1 cold water guess which one will freeze first ? If you guessed the cold water you would be wrong. Same principles apply to a hot air and alky.Now if I can only apply these laws and tune my car enough to be able to run a 12.9 @ 110mph at 15psi I would be one bad mother *%^#!!!

 

[cool 84 2]

First off, Bruce P. is one of the most respected guys in the TR community and he has done TONS of research. Some of it, most of us will never take the time to do and document. I find his finding inetesting, but we really need to read it closely. He also specifically mentions the words; "Traffic, heat soaked, front mount, code for compentation".

Here is my opinion regarding IC and Meth;
IC does not replace meth, and Meth does not replace an IC.
IC cools the air and meth also raises the octane.
So, in my mind (note that I am FAR from an expert), taking into account the variable of a heat soaked intercooler in a stock IC set-up, Alky in itself does not replace oxygen, one of the 3 VITAL ingredients for burn/power.

In the end, it is ALL ABOUT gr./sec, specifically the air that is the trapped combustion chamber. Sure you can run 20 psi on both an IC car and a HA. Sure you can have the same temps going into the chamber on both set-ups.

But, everything else being equal, an IC'd car has the advantage of a "cooler air only" charge entering the intake manifold, and with that denser air, the gr./sec entering the chamber is higher (read "more oxygen/cubic inch"). The IC'd car will also require less meth to get the temp down to the same temp, indicating that the charge was in fact cooler/denser/"more O2/cubic inch")

The simplest and pretty much the only way (in my mind) to chemically MATCH an IC'd car given similar air volume at constant pressure, is the addition of O2, in something like an oxygenated fuel

It is ALL about gr/sec of air going into the intake port.

His findings are interesting. I've never run a stock location intercooler, I've always had a front mount. I know from info on my dad's car that the stock location intercooler definately heats the air during stop and go driving up to a point. After a while, say when you hit full boost and the turbo is pushing 290 degree air, the intercooler is cooling the charge but not as well as it could. For stop and go traffic on hot days, who knows, maybe the alky cools as well or better than a stock location intercooler. I would never think of putting an intercooler in a hot engine bay so heatsoak is not an issue for me.

 

[cool 84 2]

I am one of those who have decided to go Alky instead of an intercooler. I agree 100% with the above quote from cool 84 2. The only reason for going Alky vs. intercooler for me was cost and I do not need to go higher than 20 lbs boost because I do not race. A Razor kit allows this on a hot air. The other reason is because I could not find an intercooler for a hot air. I have not tuned it yet for boost above but I may be able to get to 23lbs.

The bottom line is an intercooler with Alky is the way to go. Cool 84 2 is right on. My 2 cents. Brad

Brad, are you feeling ok? J/K

I do think alky is much, much better than nothing on a hotair.

 

[cool 84 2]

But, everything else being equal, an IC'd car has the advantage of a "cooler air only" charge entering the intake manifold, and with that denser air, the gr./sec entering the chamber is higher (read "more oxygen/cubic inch"). The IC'd car will also require less meth to get the temp down to the same temp, indicating that the charge was in fact cooler/denser/"more O2/cubic inch")


As a basis of thermo dynamics alcohol is a liquid intercooler. And a far more efficient one than an air to air intercooler. The only advantage of an air to air is that it's maintenance free, it's on all the time and leaves very few variables to deal with. Now going back to the law of thermal dynamics hot flows to cold and warmer temps will cool faster than cooler temps. So hotter charge air will cool much faster and greater than temps that are cooler. To simplify things maybe in Highschool some of you did this experiment. Put 2 glasses of water in the freezer 1 warm water and 1 cold water guess which one will freeze first ? If you guessed the cold water you would be wrong. Same principles apply to a hot air and alky.Now if I can only apply these laws and tune my car enough to be able to run a 12.9 @ 110mph at 15psi I would be one bad mother *%^#!!!

I understand what you're saying. Alky will take more heat out of the charge air on a hotair than an intercooled car. But the intercooled car will still have the lower temps because it started out so much cooler. I've had a charge air guage on the car as a hotair, alky injected hotair, intercooled, and alky+intercooler.

That 4-5 yr old pass was completely legit. I wish the board members that were there that day were still around. The car ran strong for it's mods but it ran what it ran. I wanted to get the car in race trim badly and see what it could do but I was lucky to make 20K a year back then and never had the money to do it again. The new combo is a monster and it will see the track. I was getting it ready 6 months ago, threw on some tire and started cranking the boost and once it hit 20psi the new trans blew so it's on the back burner until I can force myself to look at it again.

Hell, I still have the video from back then, the same night it got back from the track racing a supercharged/heads/cam 5.0 at the street races, only with a few extra psi and open exhaust.

Edit- Here it is. Looks slow as hell. I was on street tires, he was on slicks, didn't go WOT till about halfway through second gear. I put a solid 3 cars on him up top.

http://bsr.njsr.org/2001/052601/6.wmv