Steve Wood
Active Member
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
I don't think LV will take bets on this ones...they don't do sure things. 
5-speed manual in a TR?
- Thread starter Vendor Defendor
- Start date
My bet is on Mr. T. GNVAIR just because youve been doing it since 86 and youve tried it that doesnt make you an expert.I know men that have been mechanics for 30 years and didnt know jack.I understand that you couldnt get it to work good for you but it doesnt mean it wont work good for Mr T.I do agree that the cars gonna slow down.Id say in et only,mph will go up if the tranny can hold up.
Just my .03 cents
Just my .03 cents
Well, lets not turn this into a who's-better argument. I'm sure Lee might be one of the first people to congratulate Mike if the project gets done. I say. If you gots the cash, make it happen. If it fails, then it's just an expensive lesson. After all, what good is money if you don't spend it?
This debate will go on for a long time, and I guess it is good to stir up the old grey matter...
If I step back and look at the idea, I ask myself the question...Why are sticks used?
To reduce weight. To reduce parasitic HP loss. In auto-cross and rally driving usually to manipulate the gear ratios so the engine's rpm will sit in the "power-band" when coming out of a corner, and for assistance in braking going into a corner.
I can understand trying to shave some weight off, but the difference isn't really that much when you add up all the parts needed to make a stick work. (Mechanical linkages or hydraulic master and slave cylinders, pedal, flywheel, clutch, disk, fork, throwout bearing, etc.)
Parasitic loss... I feel unless you are running an all out race car, the HP loss is negligible.
Making sure that the engine is operating in it's powerband... 350 FT/LB's of torque at 2000 rpm. Yah, I better drop another gear
to get that baby to pull harder through the corner
When I had my twin cam 8500 rpm red-line race motor, with a 4.36 diff in the "Toy", the 5 spd was needed. Nothing felt better than dropping a gear or two to put that motor into the "Sweet zone" and let her rip. When I used to rally drive, I would love to toe/heel downshift as I was entered a corner and smoothly pull through, coming out of the apex right in the power band. With some manipulation of the "E" brake, it was easy to gently kick out the rear end car and bring on the power to drift through the corners.
This application works well when the motor in hand doesn't make a lot of low end torque, and has a wide rpm range.
The Turbo Buick motor is like a DC motor, it likes load. It is also like a light switch. On or Off, and it doesn't rev very high.
One of the things that scared me a lot when I ran a stick, was how easy it was to get the car squirrelly in a corner when shifting and not even be pushing it. Most of you know how easy it is to break the tires loose going in a straight line, now do the same in a corner. Add to that shocking the drive train with some gear changes
Those of you that are thinking that BOV's and power-shifting
will be part of the solution, take a step back and consider how much traction you will have if you are power-shifting in a corner at WOT... Think about it. All the power in the world is useless if you can't put it to the pavement
The line between drag racing and street driving is getting blurred here, and too many variables are being added to the mix. Other cars, engines, turbos, etc. We are talking about the basically stock Turbo Buick motor found in most TR/GN engine bays, not a Stage motor, 4 cyl race motor, SBC, or a high $$$ experimental redesign. Let's stick with what we have.
One of the reasons that I went with the Buick swap, was because it had a flat torque curve and built it down low in the rpm range. I grew tired of having to make a lot of noise and drawing attention to the car with the high revs when I wanted to play. With the N/A motor, it started at 1500 rpm and just pulled. 4400 rpm was all that was needed to get the job done.
Step up to the Turbo SFI setup and
If your motor is slow to spool using any of the smaller streetable turbos, you need to do some tuning and have a good look at your chip. If it isn't quick enough, try some of the "recipe' mods. If you really feel that the auto tranny doesn't shift well enough for your liking, put in a manual valve body and a aftermarket shifter and shift away. You will save yourself a lot of grief and $$$ in the long run. If you just want to be different and like challenges (I can relate ) go for it, and report back to us all the details of your journey.
Just my ramblings.
Paul
If I step back and look at the idea, I ask myself the question...Why are sticks used?
To reduce weight. To reduce parasitic HP loss. In auto-cross and rally driving usually to manipulate the gear ratios so the engine's rpm will sit in the "power-band" when coming out of a corner, and for assistance in braking going into a corner.
I can understand trying to shave some weight off, but the difference isn't really that much when you add up all the parts needed to make a stick work. (Mechanical linkages or hydraulic master and slave cylinders, pedal, flywheel, clutch, disk, fork, throwout bearing, etc.)
Parasitic loss... I feel unless you are running an all out race car, the HP loss is negligible.
Making sure that the engine is operating in it's powerband... 350 FT/LB's of torque at 2000 rpm. Yah, I better drop another gear
to get that baby to pull harder through the corner
When I had my twin cam 8500 rpm red-line race motor, with a 4.36 diff in the "Toy", the 5 spd was needed. Nothing felt better than dropping a gear or two to put that motor into the "Sweet zone" and let her rip. When I used to rally drive, I would love to toe/heel downshift as I was entered a corner and smoothly pull through, coming out of the apex right in the power band. With some manipulation of the "E" brake, it was easy to gently kick out the rear end car and bring on the power to drift through the corners.
This application works well when the motor in hand doesn't make a lot of low end torque, and has a wide rpm range.
The Turbo Buick motor is like a DC motor, it likes load. It is also like a light switch. On or Off, and it doesn't rev very high.
One of the things that scared me a lot
when I ran a stick, was how easy it was to get the car squirrelly in a corner when shifting and not even be pushing it. Most of you know how easy it is to break the tires loose going in a straight line, now do the same in a corner. Add to that shocking the drive train with some gear changes Those of you that are thinking that BOV's and power-shifting
will be part of the solution, take a step back and consider how much traction you will have if you are power-shifting in a corner at WOT... Think about it. All the power in the world is useless if you can't put it to the pavement
The line between drag racing and street driving is getting blurred here, and too many variables are being added to the mix. Other cars, engines, turbos, etc. We are talking about the basically stock Turbo Buick motor found in most TR/GN engine bays, not a Stage motor, 4 cyl race motor, SBC, or a high $$$ experimental redesign. Let's stick with what we have.
One of the reasons that I went with the Buick swap, was because it had a flat torque curve and built it down low in the rpm range. I grew tired of having to make a lot of noise and drawing attention to the car with the high revs when I wanted to play. With the N/A motor, it started at 1500 rpm and just pulled. 4400 rpm was all that was needed to get the job done.
Step up to the Turbo SFI setup and
If your motor is slow to spool using any of the smaller streetable turbos, you need to do some tuning and have a good look at your chip. If it isn't quick enough, try some of the "recipe' mods. If you really feel that the auto tranny doesn't shift well enough for your liking, put in a manual valve body and a aftermarket shifter and shift away. You will save yourself a lot of grief and $$$ in the long run. If you just want to be different and like challenges (I can relate
) go for it, and report back to us all the details of your journey. Just my ramblings.
Paul
That's actually one of the reason I would CONSIDER moving to a stick. I've spun numerous times charging out of a corner in an Auto-X when the car decided to pull the 1-2 shift without letting me know first.
The manual valve body would probably be a better idea though.
nitrousmike175
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2002
Sleeper the actual power loss from an auto to a stick is about 15 to 20% to the rear wheels and as for as weight savings if you are able to drop 100 to150lbs that could be a tenth to tenth and a half and you should be able to drop that easy. At the track that might make a big difference but on the street the only thing to worry about is if you can out MPH the other person.
Vendor Defendor
Out the window
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2002
well jumping back into the thread i made, a tranny isnt really all that heavy, i work with them all the time, and i actually got board enough to find the weight of a tranny, a 700-R4 weights (if i remember correctly, this was a while ago) 89lbs, with out the converter, so what i am trying to say is if your just doing this to save weight in the car, i dont think you are really going to save that much because the tranny dosent really weight that much in the first place...
-neil
-neil
Well, I will be building a stick setup w/3.8 turbo buick motor down the line when I start my Diablo kit car on a Fiero base. I know it will be slower than the auto but hey, it is a Diablo, it has to be stick and will be fun to drive. I am also building a Fiero with GN motor setup, since I want this car to fast, I am going with TH325-4L auto( the one with the overdrive out of an 83-85 Riv,Tor,Eldo)From what I gathered, the Porsche G50 trans out of a 930 Porsche is probably the strongest trans out there after beefing it up.I still don't know about the clutch, that is another can of worms.
Just my $.02
Prasad
Just my $.02
Prasad
V8turboGMC
Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2002
Pedals
Im not sure if someone has posted this or not (I didnt fell like reading the whold thing). Im almost sure you can use the pedal setup out of an 80's El Camino, a few of them had stick shifts.
Im not sure if someone has posted this or not (I didnt fell like reading the whold thing). Im almost sure you can use the pedal setup out of an 80's El Camino, a few of them had stick shifts.
My Pontiac 2+2 has the pedal set-up from an elcamino. Malibu's and Grand Prix's (78-79) also came with manual transmissions.
I actually owned a '79 Grand Prix SJ with a 4 speed manual, one of 232 built.
The drivetrain loss of an auto is only slightly more than a manual transmission, especially if a lock up converter is used. Torque multiplication of the converter on the low end more than makes up for drivetrain loss on the high end (Why auto F-bodies are quicker than 6 speed F-fbodies, mod for mod)
This is an old dead horse that keeps getting kicked. At best, a manual trans may equal the performance of an automatic...after how much money spent?
I actually owned a '79 Grand Prix SJ with a 4 speed manual, one of 232 built.
The drivetrain loss of an auto is only slightly more than a manual transmission, especially if a lock up converter is used. Torque multiplication of the converter on the low end more than makes up for drivetrain loss on the high end (Why auto F-bodies are quicker than 6 speed F-fbodies, mod for mod)
This is an old dead horse that keeps getting kicked. At best, a manual trans may equal the performance of an automatic...after how much money spent?
EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
I put a "stick" in my car and I am sure it will ET and MPH better than an automatic, direct drive in 5th gear, instant boost on the starting line etc etc etc
Bill
Bill
EightSecV6
MDBL
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2001
Still working on the wiring (over 50hrs in that already, I'll post some pics soon and you'll see why!!!) Still need to plumb the oil and fuel system,paint the fron end and make the exhaust. We are trying desperately for Bowling Green even if it is to just shake it down a little.
Bill
Bill
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