"109" Stock Block Class Racing - What's the Point Anymore?

[Bent6]

I know this is going to ruffle some feathers but I want to put it on the table. My intention is to have some intelligent and realistic discussion on the subject - not start a pissing contest.

I don't see the point of some of the heads up classes still requiring the use of the stock "109" block.

I've been around since the beginning and since a few of you don't know let me give you some history on the subject.........

Back in the day, there were only two heads up turbo classes - Turbo Street Stock and Turbo Street Eliminator. Now obviously the TSS class was based on mostly stock appearing cars so the stock block is understandable. TSE was the fast class with ets in the 10s and allowed the Stage 2 blocks but not the heads if memory serves me correctly. Then came the infamous Turbo Street Modified (TSM) class which centered around the stock 109 block in an effort to keep the playing field relatively level by keeping the big boys with Stage motors out and limiting turbo size to 70mm. It was even pitched as an "affordable" class since TSE was getting somewhat blury at that time. Here we are now years later. TSM is a mid to low 9 sec class and we've had a few guys run 8s with the stock 109 block. These are awesome performance numbers and I'm not taking anything away from these guys as they've certainly paid their dues.

Here's my point. It makes perfect sense to require the stock block in a stock appearing classes like TSA. Most of the faster classes like TSM and THS have a lot of guys running what's essentially the same rotating assembly as you'd find in a Stage 2 motor but it's all stuffed into a wimpy stock 109 block with girdles, caps, panties, duct tape, bailing wire, etc holding it all in there in hopes of keeping that expensive rotating assembly from kissing the crossmember. There is absolutely ZERO performance advantage to a block. The real power is in the heads and turbos so I can certainly agree with restricting the heads and/or turbo sizes to control the classes. It makes no sense whatsoever anymore for people to risk considerable investment by requiring the use of the stock block when there is no good reason. Sure it's cool to be able to say you ran this or that with a stock block but other than that what's the point? Why not allow people to protect their investments as well as their safety and run a beefier block if they want. If a man's on a budget or just wants to run a 109 block that's OK too but don't make it mandatory. I personally think this is just another little issue that could possibly hinder participation and/or growth in some of the classes. We have enough nit picky rules in these classes as it is but I don't understand the ones such as block and rear end restrictions which are ZERO performance advantage.

 

[Mike E]

I completely agree. I started out with tsm in mind when building my car. Once I got into buying engine parts, I couldn't take the risk of putting a $3000 rotating assembly in a $300 block. Sure, you can add a girdle and tons of time and money in machine work, but it still appears to be a grenade with the pin pulled. I would be willing to bet, I'll have the same amount of money in my stage block as I would have had in a prepped stock block.

 

[southern boost]

Well it a place for people show there tunin ability or lack there of . I love the class of TSM and will keep playin with the stock blocks until ,there finally gone . Don't take this wrong I love stage stuff and V-8 cars ,but when you take that lil block and do this crazy things we do it just plain out fun.

and by the by there where some 109 runnin with the stage stuff at bg

 

[charlief1]

I understand leaving a class as production Buick RWD block but will never understand the reason for the 109 block being specific to a class. That leaves so many guys out of the racing. There are some differences in the blocks but not really enough to make that big a differentiation (sp?) between them. I've brought this up before and was told that the sponsor required this specific rule so stfu!

 

[Bent6]

Randy - no offense but it doesn't matter how good the tune is or isn't - fact is the stock blocks will fail sooner or later. If that's your idea of fun that's fine but why make it a requirement for everyone? Notice you said block(s) - I would prefer to do it once rather than constantly be looking over my shoulder to see when it's going to crack and/or take a dump. I've been beating on the same Stage 2 block, crank and rods for over 15 years putting out well north of 1000hp with not one failure. The only advantage that shortblock has is the fact that it was designed to handle the power. It's amazing what these little engines can do regardless of the block structure.

I'm just saying give the people a choice rather than requring them to roll the dice with a stock grandma block.

 

[Kip]

I'm just saying give the people a choice rather than requring them to roll the dice with a stock grandma block.

I think we need to clear some stuff up here. First THS was mentioned along with TSM as 109 only, this is incorrect THS allows many more options than the 109.

Second, it is not like a stage blocked car has no where to race at the GS Nats. TSL, TSE and TSO all allow stage blocks.

Take care, Kip

 

[Bent6]

I think we need to clear some stuff up here. First THS was mentioned along with TSM as 109 only, this is incorrect THS allows many more options than the 109.

Second, it is not like a stage blocked car has no where to race at the GS Nats. TSL, TSE and TSO all allow stage blocks.

Take care, Kip

I don't think you are clear on what I said Kip.

I did not say anything about THS being 109 only but the fact still is that I would say 99% of the guys in that class are running a 109. Since you mentioned it, the THS rules may not specify the 109 block but the they sure do limit the reliable block options as most of the "production" V6 blocks those rules would allow were no better than the 109 anyway. The point is that the blocks offer ZERO performance advantage. The classes can and should be regulated by heads, turbos, and weight requirements. There are already too many silly overlapping rules as it is that keep a lot of guys on the sidelines - the block shouldn't be one of them.

I didn't say anything about the GS Nats or Stage blocked cars not having a place to race. Again, I'm just saying it should be a choice because a block offers no performance advantage in itself.

 

[bison]

I know this is going to ruffle some feathers but I want to put it on the table. My intention is to have some intelligent and realistic discussion on the subject - not start a pissing contest.

I don't see the point of some of the heads up classes still requiring the use of the stock "109" block.

I've been around since the beginning and since a few of you don't know let me give you some history on the subject.........

Back in the day, there were only two heads up turbo classes - Turbo Street Stock and Turbo Street Eliminator. Now obviously the TSS class was based on mostly stock appearing cars so the stock block is understandable. TSE was the fast class with ets in the 10s and allowed the Stage 2 blocks but not the heads if memory serves me correctly. Then came the infamous Turbo Street Modified (TSM) class which centered around the stock 109 block in an effort to keep the playing field relatively level by keeping the big boys with Stage motors out and limiting turbo size to 70mm. It was even pitched as an "affordable" class since TSE was getting somewhat blury at that time. Here we are now years later. TSM is a mid to low 9 sec class and we've had a few guys run 8s with the stock 109 block. These are awesome performance numbers and I'm not taking anything away from these guys as they've certainly paid their dues.

Here's my point. It makes perfect sense to require the stock block in a stock appearing classes like TSA. Most of the faster classes like TSM and THS have a lot of guys running what's essentially the same rotating assembly as you'd find in a Stage 2 motor but it's all stuffed into a wimpy stock 109 block with girdles, caps, panties, duct tape, bailing wire, etc holding it all in there in hopes of keeping that expensive rotating assembly from kissing the crossmember. There is absolutely ZERO performance advantage to a block. The real power is in the heads and turbos so I can certainly agree with restricting the heads and/or turbo sizes to control the classes. It makes no sense whatsoever anymore for people to risk considerable investment by requiring the use of the stock block when there is no good reason. Sure it's cool to be able to say you ran this or that with a stock block but other than that what's the point? Why not allow people to protect their investments as well as their safety and run a beefier block if they want. If a man's on a budget or just wants to run a 109 block that's OK too but don't make it mandatory. I personally think this is just another little issue that could possibly hinder participation and/or growth in some of the classes. We have enough nit picky rules in these classes as it is but I don't understand the ones such as block and rear end restrictions which are ZERO performance advantage.

I agree on the block thing but i will say there is definitely some power in the block at the levels the guys are pushing them now. The turbos allowed will limit the hp more than anything. Changing or adding classes at this point is a waste of time. The real problem for most is that the heads up classes are expensive and no amount of changes to rules will make it cheaper if you want to be competitive. 10 years ago if someone made a good adapter kit the 3800 series 2 could have been used rather cheap and a lot of guys would have had the potential to go a lot faster more reliably than anyone has with these crappy 109 blocks.

 

[Bent6]

I'll agree with you Bison - it's like pissing into the wind at this point but anyone with half a grain of reason knows it's the truth.

Heads up racing will never be cheap but it just doesn't make sense to take a nice rotating assembly, stuff it in a crap block, turn up the wick and HOPE it stays together for a while.

 

[Slow91z]

I hear what you're saying Will, but have to disagree.

TSM has proven a 109 will live WAY beyond what we thought years ago, and now it's a staple of the class can't change it now.

When it comes to the other production block classes TSM has proven that the blocks can live at the times they are running and if you allow Stage blocks then new potential racers will be scared away because "I have to have a stage block to be competitive", which it BS...It's just like all the guys that think they HAVE to have a billet 67 to run THS just because it's allowed, there are some top guys running 66mm turbos and we all know the old 63-64 turbos are more than capable of running mid pack. Shoot there's guys that have gone low 10's with 61's. If you allow it in the little guy thinks there's no way I can compete with those guys they have STAGE motor's.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I agree somewhat Will. It's crazy the racers have to depend on a $200 block to hold it all together. It's been proven to hold alot more power than most thought was possible. It's impressive what they can take.

But I know for a fact the block is a performance advantage. It doesn't seem true on paper but after working with a stock block car for years I know it's true. We've broken our share of blocks. 3 in the last couple years. We were trying to go 5.50's with the 109 so we could compete in a local class along with TSM by only changing turbo's. There were issues obviously stressing the block when the rpm range and hp level reached a certain point. The last motor hauled ass but it was good for about 5 1/4 mile passes. Chris went back to the drawing board for a milder combo. It runs in the top of the field in TSM and lives. Give us a Stage block and we'll go back to the other combo and I promise it goes 8.80's all year long with the 70mm on it. The stock block keeps us conservative. Who would have ever thought a 70mm turbo would go 8's? The weird part of this whole class is that the 70mm is not done at 9.0. It really is the block that is holding this class back.

 

[KevinB]

I think ths is fine with stock blocks. No car in legal ths trim has come close to the numbers that break blocks....or at an event at least.

I broke a block a couple years ago. Tsm is kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't change the rules. I would build a stage 2 and run tsm if the rules changed. I am probably one of the few who feel this way though. It would be cool to compete in the local heads up stuff like dusty mentioned and not worry about breaking the block. Swap turbo and go buick racing.

 

[Razor]

How bout classes mandating a 2004r as the transmission used.. you break a few of those and it gets old quickly..

 

[Dusty Bradford]

How bout classes mandating a 2004r as the transmission used.. you break a few of those and it gets old quickly..

We'd give up Buick racing if that were the case.

 

[Mike E]

If the though of cost of a stage block scares away a potential tsm racer, they probably shouldn't be racing that class anyways. Are there any front runners that haven't broken a block? If you break one block, you will probably have more money invested in two prepped stock blocks than you would in one new TA block. If a stage block was allowed in TSM, I would seriously consider selling my stage top end and buying stock style heads and intake. With the stage block, I can put an 80mm on and race ultimate street. That's not happening with a 109.

There is also the safety aspect of a marginal block. How long before someone puts a car in the wall because a stock block lets go on the big end and puts oil under the tires?

 

[Bent6]

TSM has proven a 109 will live WAY beyond what we thought years ago, and now it's a staple of the class can't change it now.

When it comes to the other production block classes TSM has proven that the blocks can live at the times they are running and if you allow Stage blocks then new potential racers will be scared away because "I have to have a stage block to be competitive", which it BS... If you allow it in the little guy thinks there's no way I can compete with those guys they have STAGE motor's.

I agree it's impressive what a 109 can do but my point is what IS the point anymore since the 8 sec barrier has been broken. Yes they can live but for how long is the point. I don't exactly see people flocking to run this class anymore. Part of the reason is it's gotten too fast for the little guy but another reason is the fact that some don't want to spend the kind of cash it takes to be competitive with a time bomb stock block.

I agree somewhat Will. It's crazy the racers have to depend on a $200 block to hold it all together. It's been proven to hold alot more power than most thought was possible. It's impressive what they can take.

But I know for a fact the block is a performance advantage. It doesn't seem true on paper but after working with a stock block car for years I know it's true. We've broken our share of blocks. 3 in the last couple years. We were trying to go 5.50's with the 109 so we could compete in a local class along with TSM by only changing turbo's. There were issues obviously stressing the block when the rpm range and hp level reached a certain point. The last motor hauled ass but it was good for about 5 1/4 mile passes. Chris went back to the drawing board for a milder combo. It runs in the top of the field in TSM and lives. Give us a Stage block and we'll go back to the other combo and I promise it goes 8.80's all year long with the 70mm on it. The stock block keeps us conservative. Who would have ever thought a 70mm turbo would go 8's? The weird part of this whole class is that the 70mm is not done at 9.0. It really is the block that is holding this class back.

You have a point there Dusty. If you look at it from that perspective then you could consider the block a performance advantage but it's really the fact that you can lean on the turbo harder and push the block harder rather than the block itself. The 109 block limitation keeps things in check to an extent.

It would be cool to compete in the local heads up stuff like dusty mentioned and not worry about breaking the block. Swap turbo and go buick racing.

EXACTLY.

 

[Razor]

We'd give up Buick racing if that were the case.

The point of racing is for it to be

1) enjoyable...
2) repeatable
3) affordable.

One has to select parts that will hang at the performance level one wants to be at.. whatever that is... Once past that point, it gets old quick. This is the problem with "racing" and using stock parts... And the problem with classes that limit this... eventually gets old.. and car count dies.

The initial draw is running a stock block appears inexpensive as you already have one.. its the "it broke".. I now have 1000's of dollars tied up in the project and cant back out..

 

[GNDriven]

Bent 6, I'm trying to get into the class racing myself. I am going with a stage II motor and would like to be competitive. Being fund adverse, I will need to balance risk vs reward so running TSO, and even TSL is going to be difficult for the ET in that class is mid 8s. I would love to run a 70mm turbo race class with my setup.
Having said that, I think the last post touched on the point I was thinking about. Higher RPM could be achieved with the stage block with less concern than a 109. I guess only the owners know, but I'm guessing the TSM class shifts around 6k -6.3k, anymore rpm and its like pulling the pin and throwing the grenade, you are wanting it to go. The 109s survive if the rpm is kept lower from what I gather.

 

[JayC]

Stage blocks should be allowed and the rest of the rules remain the same. Problem is going to be cubic inch limitations because no one is going to find a plethora of 3.8 Stage 2 blocks. I dont know if the TA block can be had in that small of a bore or not.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

There is also the safety aspect of a marginal block. How long before someone puts a car in the wall because a stock block lets go on the big end and puts oil under the tires?

We don't have one right now but I promise you we'll have a diaper on the engine when the car hits the track again.

Just some info though. Every broken block I have seen isn't broken to the point of oiling down the tires. They crack internally loosing oil pressure. Chris built a retaining device for the freeze pugs.