If the rules are not written I will plead the case. 3800 Series 2 and 3 are improved versions of the 109 engine. For those who do not know were installed in most GM FWD cars in 1995 threw 2008. My observation is as follows. The block is hi nickle with 4 Bolt Mains and steel main caps. The oiling system is improved as is the cooling system. The Heads are symmetrical and come with larger valves than the 8445 heads. The heads more than likely flow better than an average ported iron not even close to ported aluminum. There are no aftermarket cranks so the stock cast 3.400 crank will need to be used bringing the CID to a whopping 234" The intake is restricted to FWD or F-body cast intake. (Since sheet aluminum would not be allowed) The heads bolts are 4 per cylinder 12mm slightly Larger than 109. Not 6 per cylinder like a stage engine. The short block is stronger than 109 but not as strong as stage. I agree and understand the 109 needs to get any break that is available. I also believe this little engine could be a viable option to the Buick Performance community in the near future. I do believe the strength of the block and possibly the improved cylinder heads that weight should be added. I think a fair weight should be 109 aluminum weight. The 3800 does not have the CID capability of the 109 or the head flow capability of the LC2 Aluminum Heads. Since I feel performance wise its in between iron 109 and aluminum 109 I would think aluminum weights would be a good starting point. If we know that weights will be adjusted for fairness I would think there is more if a case to start at the lower weight and add from there. I would like to say that the 3800 rule would bring in more cars but I am sure thats not the case. I only know of 3 running cars with them and I think I am the only one that is looking to run at this level.
XTSM - Extreme TSM
- Thread starter V6RACER
- Start date
If the rules are not written I will plead the case. 3800 Series 2 and 3 are improved versions of the 109 engine. For those who do not know were installed in most GM FWD cars in 1995 threw 2008. My observation is as follows. The block is hi nickle with 4 Bolt Mains and steel main caps. The oiling system is improved as is the cooling system. The Heads are symmetrical and come with larger valves than the 8445 heads. The heads more than likely flow better than an average ported iron not even close to ported aluminum. There are no aftermarket cranks so the stock cast 3.400 crank will need to be used bringing the CID to a whopping 234" The intake is restricted to FWD or F-body cast intake. (Since sheet aluminum would not be allowed) The heads bolts are 4 per cylinder 12mm slightly Larger than 109. Not 6 per cylinder like a stage engine. The short block is stronger than 109 but not as strong as stage. I agree and understand the 109 needs to get any break that is available. I also believe this little engine could be a viable option to the Buick Performance community in the near future. I do believe the strength of the block and possibly the improved cylinder heads that weight should be added. I think a fair weight should be 109 aluminum weight. The 3800 does not have the CID capability of the 109 or the head flow capability of the LC2 Aluminum Heads. Since I feel performance wise its in between iron 109 and aluminum 109 I would think aluminum weights would be a good starting point. If we know that weights will be adjusted for fairness I would think there is more if a case to start at the lower weight and add from there. I would like to say that the 3800 rule would bring in more cars but I am sure thats not the case. I only know of 3 running cars with them and I think I am the only one that is looking to run at this level.
Chris Hogeland
TWISTED 6 RACING
- Joined
- May 28, 2006
Tsm
I have been thinking about it some more maybe we do need to leave the weight like Jason said at first just to see how everything is going to play out. You will be able to push even the S2 3.8 a lot hader than the 109. So everybody pull together and lets get this going. This is A big change so everybody hang in there and we can make changes as we go.
I have been thinking about it some more maybe we do need to leave the weight like Jason said at first just to see how everything is going to play out. You will be able to push even the S2 3.8 a lot hader than the 109. So everybody pull together and lets get this going. This is A big change so everybody hang in there and we can make changes as we go.
southern boost
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
Well said Chris ,if people give this a chance it might work ,but don't shoot it in the foot before it start .I will be at the tb.com race heavy or light no fear and don't scream give me this or that.
Kip I try not to get in this stuff ,Jason has stated point blank this is startin point has he not ?
Why do you persist to keep on with" your changes" Why is your quest to do this ?
I have stay out of your class because I don't race ths do you plan to race tsm ?
I like what Jason has try to for the class, I will try my best to be contender next yr .
FINALLY IT IS STATED THIS IS A BEGINING POINT NOTHIN SET IN STONE .
COME ON GUYS .
Kip I try not to get in this stuff ,Jason has stated point blank this is startin point has he not ?
Why do you persist to keep on with" your changes" Why is your quest to do this ?
I have stay out of your class because I don't race ths do you plan to race tsm ?
I like what Jason has try to for the class, I will try my best to be contender next yr .
FINALLY IT IS STATED THIS IS A BEGINING POINT NOTHIN SET IN STONE .
COME ON GUYS .
III'S 87 GN
Active Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2002
Yellow Brick
New Member
- Joined
- May 30, 2004
Got to love a TSM rules discussion to get this place moving.
There are currently 25 users browsing this thread. (17 members and 8 guests)
Yellow Brick,11.20n1320,baadgn,BLACK6PACK,BobbyBuick,HighPSI,III'S 87 GN,re-evaluating,Robert Wilson,RYAN GRAVES,sack himself,southern boost,Sydwyndr,TSA 86 T-type,turbobuick,turbot990,TurboTnZ06,
3300- "8445" headed 109
3450- Alum production style head 109
3550- 3.8 Stage block any head
3650- 4.1 Stage block/ TA block
I say lock this in with these weights and put it in the beams and go from there. These weights make it easier for the current TSM racers to get down to weight while also enticing the S2 guys by narrowing the weight break by 50 pounds.
There are currently 25 users browsing this thread. (17 members and 8 guests)
Yellow Brick,11.20n1320,baadgn,BLACK6PACK,BobbyBuick,HighPSI,III'S 87 GN,re-evaluating,Robert Wilson,RYAN GRAVES,sack himself,southern boost,Sydwyndr,TSA 86 T-type,turbobuick,turbot990,TurboTnZ06,
3300- "8445" headed 109
3450- Alum production style head 109
3550- 3.8 Stage block any head
3650- 4.1 Stage block/ TA block
I say lock this in with these weights and put it in the beams and go from there. These weights make it easier for the current TSM racers to get down to weight while also enticing the S2 guys by narrowing the weight break by 50 pounds.
BobbyBuick
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Yep agree with the quiet guy !
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2001
Has the 67 turbo weight break been taken off the board?
III'S 87 GN
Active Member
- Joined
- May 19, 2002
Nope !
southern boost
Member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
Kip what is fair pls. inlighten me .
I have a couple grudge racin buddies that own 2 stage 2 3.8 blocks with 4.00 bore some screw up in castin ,so would it be fair to give those blocks weight break .
Bottomline hard to police cubic in. ,so one weight, problem solved or you can run 109 just sayin .
Series 2 3.8 blocks lot stronger don't know bout heads gray area in with big boys until proven .
Kip once you did race TSM ,but no longer ,so try to make suggestions without be forth comin young man.
I have a couple grudge racin buddies that own 2 stage 2 3.8 blocks with 4.00 bore some screw up in castin ,so would it be fair to give those blocks weight break .
Bottomline hard to police cubic in. ,so one weight, problem solved or you can run 109 just sayin .
Series 2 3.8 blocks lot stronger don't know bout heads gray area in with big boys until proven .
Kip once you did race TSM ,but no longer ,so try to make suggestions without be forth comin young man.
Im on the porch but just thinking out loud.....At what "et" would you start to make adjustments
Thought we were dropping the weight penalty for alky with agreement weight could be added.
Randy why are the fastest cars in TSM afraid of a Production Iron Head BUICK V-6? Is it not just as easy to add the weight back on?
That was my next question. How will it be determined?
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2001
LMAO, is that kinda just like that turbo plug rule that got adjusted?
