water spray for I/C
- Thread starter 85HOT-T
- Start date
Your confusing temperature with flow. The stock IC is a plug.. you cannot compare the cores on an aftermarket IC vs the stocker. The pressure drop across the stocker is big.
What I mean is spraying the stock IC with a little water may drop it what 5-10 degree's? So it goes from 135 degree to 130.. with alky those temps come down to 80 in the intake.. and depends how much is sprayed, size of turbo, etc...
FWIW, Rob Crissafulli went 132 on a bone stock IC.. yes his car did run 10's with a stocker.. no neck mods.. bone stock IC...
Wonder how many change IC running alky and dont pickup anything. can it hurt.. no... just depends.
I'm just anti changing anything without sufficient data.
HTH
What I mean is spraying the stock IC with a little water may drop it what 5-10 degree's? So it goes from 135 degree to 130.. with alky those temps come down to 80 in the intake.. and depends how much is sprayed, size of turbo, etc...
FWIW, Rob Crissafulli went 132 on a bone stock IC.. yes his car did run 10's with a stocker.. no neck mods.. bone stock IC...
Wonder how many change IC running alky and dont pickup anything. can it hurt.. no... just depends.
I'm just anti changing anything without sufficient data.
HTH
zerobanger
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
Spraying water on an intercooler will do very little to lower your intake temps. If you have massive heatsoak on your intercooler and you spray your intercooler with a mix of Alcohol/water there would be an affect when you start moving, but it would be minimal. Also, since the intercooler has such a large surface area you would need quite a few nozzles to cover the surface area.
Water injection on the other hand will give you outstanding results and the cost is the same and installation is nearly identical with the exception of where you mount the nozzle.
I'm currently running a special on my water injection setup if anyone is interested. Im running a group buy right now. The prices you see on the website are regular prices including shipping. If enough participate in the group buy the prices drop from there.
www.davidhillsoftware.com/waterinjection.html
Water injection on the other hand will give you outstanding results and the cost is the same and installation is nearly identical with the exception of where you mount the nozzle.
I'm currently running a special on my water injection setup if anyone is interested. Im running a group buy right now. The prices you see on the website are regular prices including shipping. If enough participate in the group buy the prices drop from there.
www.davidhillsoftware.com/waterinjection.html
If you all dont mind I would like to chime in. There are 2 big gains with alky one which you are overlooking a lot. Yes alky does cool the air charge going in a lot!! But........The big gain is the fact that it covers up detonation in higher boost conditions........kinda like running race gas, It gives the little guys like me the ability to run higher boost on the street without spending $5.50/gal on race gas or $500 on bigger injectors and chips. As far as atomizing more by spraying b4 the IC I think it would be a waste. The faster the water/alky gets into the intake the better. I think that is why I see the bulk of guys putting the spray nozzle in the up-pipe.
Just my opinions.
Just my opinions.
zerobanger
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
use 50/50 water and alcohol and you get the best of both worlds. dont use more than 50 pct alcohol or you will contribute to detonation since the alcohol burns, rather than prevent it.
I don't know why some of you guys insist on questioning Razor's expertise and knowledge on what actions give us the most horsepower increase. Don't you think that if there was something worthwhile to be gained by spraying on the intercooler, he would have come out with a kit for that? Alcohol injection in forced induction applications has been around since the '40's with documented gains. The Buick aftermarket community did not come up with the idea. Rather, several creative individuals, (Razor, SMC and DIYer's) took the initiative to invent kits that work well with our applications. So, forget about spraying the outside of the IC, start alcohol injection, turn up your boost safely and enjoy yourself! Who cares if some import POS is spraying the outside of the IC; they'll never be able to safely turn up the boost doing that. Happy boosting! 
Well your at two bads.. see the 50/50 mix doesnt work as well as the straight.
Show me a fast car on alky, that actually races at the track... he'll be running it straight. Its really an easy thing to test. You take a test vehicle tune it to run mix.. the when no more power can be extracted without seeing KR.. switch to pure methanol and see if it inhibits detonatiin further. Cannot be easier. Be amazed at what you'll find.
And the alcohol cuases detonation.. boy is that on left field. Why would you mix something with water that would cuase detonation?
Why not run it pure water if you feel alky cuases problems?See your reading too much aquamist stuff.. since theyre pump cannot tolerate more than a 50% mix, then 50/50 is what works best.. if you have an aquamist setup.
There is a lot more to AI than using a pressure switch to trigger a relay that drives a pump. Especially when trying to maintain stable air fuel ratios in an attempt to make power.
The kit you linked is the same as the DIY kit Stevemonroe has on the net. The hobbs switches have dead band and reliability issues.
You have some homework to do.... and some tests to perform on your own vehicle to substantiate claims. Glad you took the initiative to promote yourself, but if you want to do advertising on this board, contact the appropriate channels, they will assist you accordingly.
Peace
zerobanger
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
Originally posted by Razor
Well your at two bads.. see the 50/50 mix doesnt work as well as the straight.
Show me a fast car on alky, that actually races at the track... he'll be running it straight. Its really an easy thing to test. You take a test vehicle tune it to run mix.. the when no more power can be extracted without seeing KR.. switch to pure methanol and see if it inhibits detonatiin further. Cannot be easier. Be amazed at what you'll find.
And the alcohol cuases detonation.. boy is that on left field. Why would you mix something with water that would cuase detonation?
See your reading too much aquamist stuff.. since theyre pump cannot tolerate more than a 50% mix, then 50/50 is what works best.. if you have an aquamist setup.
There is a lot more to AI than using a pressure switch to trigger a relay that drives a pump. Especially when trying to maintain stable air fuel ratios in an attempt to make power.
The kit you linked is the same as the DIY kit Stevemonroe has on the net. The hobbs switches have dead band and reliability issues.
You have some homework to do.... and some tests to perform on your own vehicle to substantiate claims. Glad you took the initiative to promote yourself, but if you want to do advertising on this board, contact the appropriate channels, they will assist you accordingly.
Peace
Im not looking to argue with you. I have done my homework, I have also contacted this board several times. Next, I dont use "Hobbs" switches as I find them to break too easy.
I dont have an "Aquamist" setup. Infact I have the same pump you do.
You seem to have a fine product, but please dont flame me further.
thanks
BTW, your times are pretty awesome.
Ok maybe in laymans terms. You have a liquid. You need it to vaporize so it mixes thoroughly with the air rushing past it. The way you vaporize the liquid is you hit it with hot air. Hence the flash point. Alcohol has a much lower flash point than water.. so it flashes with a lot less temperature. But still needs a certain temperature for this to happen. And depending on type of alcohol, may change its flash point up. Also moisture/condensation present in the alcohol will change its flash point. The higher the temperature hitting the alcohol, the better chance it has for a complete "flash" into the air.
Thats why when it gets 40 degrees outside, you have to watch your tune, becuase if the air leaving the IC is 40 degrees, the alcohol will make its way into the motor but not have the same distribution. Best thing to do with alky when its cold outside is to bring the engine to full operating temps, Get the turbo nice and hot, intake nice and hot, etc.. before running it at high boost. Not that tires will stick when its under 45 degrees.. thats another thing.
Hence why water injection must use really small nozzles to get atomization.. becuase if its not atomized well.. it wont saturate the air completely cuasing an issue. Yet alcohol becuase of the lower temp for it to flash, can use a much coarser nozzle. You can shoot alcohol with a water nozzle, and it will work. Tho typically to get the benefits requires running 4-6 nozzles.. due to the volume the nozzles put out. Depending on nozzle. pump pressure, size of motor, etc..
HTH
AirBuick, no worries
thx.Your new to the board, with 4 posts.
Sorry if I flamed you, but with 4 posts, and one being rather out of what we percieve as factual, hence why I questioned you.
Maybe if your posts were... "What do you guys think about this pressure switch?" Then we could share ideas that could possibly confirm your findings, or maybe come up with better or worse ideas.. that is why this is a forum to share thoughts and ideas. I'm glad you are using a better switch, and a good pump.. that comes with research.
Not to say
"I'm currently running a special on my water injection setup if anyone is interested. Im running a group buy right now. The prices you see on the website are regular prices including shipping. If enough participate in the group buy the prices drop from there.
www.davidhillsoftware.com/waterinjection.html
Rite off the bat.
Welcome aboard, please earn your wings.. I dont know it all.. I dont know you.. and if you have ideas to share, cool. Just the way your initial posts have come across... cuase and effect.
TIA
zerobanger
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
sorry I offended you. thanks
Great, thanks!
Now, if you don't mind, what is the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo at say, 15lbs boost?
What is the temperature of that air coming out of a stock intercooler on an 80 degree day, with no heat soak on the intercooler?
What is the flash point of 100% denatured alchy?
(I only run 100% alchy.)
BTW, I am not arguing for water spraying on an intercooler, I am just trying to understand this "flash point" theory.
I had thought about water injection a while ago, and I decided against it becuase I thought that the spray would harm the intercooler. Seems to me it would start to break down the elements over time. Hot cold, hot cold. Not to mention the overspray that might accumulate over the engine area. Seems like an invitation for rust.
Great, thanks!
...no problem
Now, if you don't mind, what is the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo at say, 15lbs boost?
... Probably the bigger the turbo, the less the temp will be. And as long as its compressing air within its range, shouldnt get too high. At 15 PSI boost, with a cool turbo, no more than 20 degree's. The temp really picks up as the boost picks up. At 25 PSI.. 140-160 even higher
What is the temperature of that air coming out of a stock intercooler on an 80 degree day, with no heat soak on the intercooler?
...With no heat soak, same as ambient. At low boost levels.
What is the flash point of 100% denatured alchy?
(I only run 100% alchy.)
...Good question.. Dont know. Who are you buying the denatured from? Lets contact the MFG for a data sheet.
BTW, I am not arguing for water spraying on an intercooler, I am just trying to understand this "flash point" theory.
I had thought about water injection a while ago, and I decided against it becuase I thought that the spray would harm the intercooler. Seems to me it would start to break down the elements over time. Hot cold, hot cold. Not to mention the overspray that might accumulate over the engine area. Seems like an invitation for rust.
...I dont think rust would be an issue, I mean you drive through rain and such and that doesnt hurt the parts. Internally or externally. The severe temp drop from a CO2 sprayer.. that may have some wings on it as far as heat cycling the core.
...no problem
Now, if you don't mind, what is the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo at say, 15lbs boost?
... Probably the bigger the turbo, the less the temp will be. And as long as its compressing air within its range, shouldnt get too high. At 15 PSI boost, with a cool turbo, no more than 20 degree's. The temp really picks up as the boost picks up. At 25 PSI.. 140-160 even higher
What is the temperature of that air coming out of a stock intercooler on an 80 degree day, with no heat soak on the intercooler?
...With no heat soak, same as ambient. At low boost levels.
What is the flash point of 100% denatured alchy?
(I only run 100% alchy.)
...Good question.. Dont know. Who are you buying the denatured from? Lets contact the MFG for a data sheet.
BTW, I am not arguing for water spraying on an intercooler, I am just trying to understand this "flash point" theory.
I had thought about water injection a while ago, and I decided against it becuase I thought that the spray would harm the intercooler. Seems to me it would start to break down the elements over time. Hot cold, hot cold. Not to mention the overspray that might accumulate over the engine area. Seems like an invitation for rust.
...I dont think rust would be an issue, I mean you drive through rain and such and that doesnt hurt the parts. Internally or externally. The severe temp drop from a CO2 sprayer.. that may have some wings on it as far as heat cycling the core.
What is the flash point of the alcohol that you use?
When you are talking about those temperatures, are you saying that the temp of the air coming out of the turbo will be ambient + 20 at 15psi and 140-160 at 25psi?
And the air coming out of the intercooler is ambient at low boost levels?
TIA!
703crewchief
Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2002
Alcohol Flashpoint?
Even if you happen to know the flash point of the Alcohol mixture your using, putting it under pressure raises the boiling point. 20 lbs of boost is more pressure than a cooling system sees, and the boiling point is raised 25-30 degrees there.
Even if you happen to know the flash point of the Alcohol mixture your using, putting it under pressure raises the boiling point. 20 lbs of boost is more pressure than a cooling system sees, and the boiling point is raised 25-30 degrees there.
