Twin Turbo 454?

[mikebart101]

I have been thinking about this recently and I think I've come to the conclusion that this would be cheaper to build than a Stage II. I beleive this is a good crate motor to start with (forged bottom end and low compression)

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...irect&categoryId=22419&parentCategoryId=10763

Throw on a fuel injection conversion, chop up some headers, and throw on twin 44s maybe. I think this combo would produce serious power at low boost. Any input?

 

[Brer Rabbit]

Sounds like overkill

I was looking into doin a small block single turbo but realized that the motor was making too much power for a stock suspension car. I cant imagine how crazy the setup ur thinking about will be. If I remember correctly the combo Im talking about went 137 mph but only went 11.50 in a Gbody car . It was something close to that. I guess with a lot of tuning and suspension work anything is possible but what is the car gonna look like after its done? Good luck.

 

[TurboDave]

I have been thinking about this recently and I think I've come to the conclusion that this would be cheaper to build than a Stage II. I beleive this is a good crate motor to start with (forged bottom end and low compression)

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...irect&categoryId=22419&parentCategoryId=10763

Throw on a fuel injection conversion, chop up some headers, and throw on twin 44s maybe. I think this combo would produce serious power at low boost. Any input?

The engine certainly sounds like a good starting point. But cheaper than a SII? Probably not. $5K for the motor, plus by the time you figure in the FI, and it's controller (ECM), etc. Fabbing up the headers, downpipes, etc.. Hmmm sounds like a wash, money wise.

 

[headstrong3157]

If your not wanting to go through all the time and work to do the set-up for your self. Check out Nelson Racing Engines. I know they offer a couple of different twin turbo engines. They offer a variety of displacement small block set-ups and a variety of displacement big block set-ups. If I remember correctly they come with all the wiring and engine management programmed and ready to start and go once you get it all hooked up and the engine in.

www.nelsonracingengines.com

 

[mikebart101]

If your not wanting to go through all the time and work to do the set-up for your self. Check out Nelson Racing Engines. I know they offer a couple of different twin turbo engines. They offer a variety of displacement small block set-ups and a variety of displacement big block set-ups. If I remember correctly they come with all the wiring and engine management programmed and ready to start and go once you get it all hooked up and the engine in.

www.nelsonracingengines.com

I just checked out that site and I dont think there is anything that can beat a 3000hp crate motor!!! :biggrin:

Probably have to sell everything I own to pay for one of those engines tho

 

[BandAid]

your motor(jegs) and a blow thru carb
turbomustangs.com
LS1/LT1 section....

 

[headstrong3157]

I just checked out that site and I dont think there is anything that can beat a 3000hp crate motor!!! :biggrin:

Probably have to sell everything I own to pay for one of those engines tho

Yeah they arent cheap but done right 100%. I think the twin turbo SBC350 cost was around $10,000. So Im sure the big block ones are ones that might take a second mortgage to get.

 

[VadersV6]

Big blocks are becoming a thing of the past. You can get alot of cubes out of a small block, which is always a better route given the weight advantage (faster and handles better). Plus twin 44's would be a little small for such a huge motor. Then ontop of that you'll be getting like 5 gallons per mile.
I would prefer a small cube V8 with good heads and a big turbo. Handles well, rides well, gets good mpg, is fast and can rpm like crazy.

 

[Blazer406]

Don't discount the SBC. I personally saw Dust Bradford go low 8's at like 16x.xx mph on drag radials with one turbo.... on a 383 SBC with a dart block and Track1 heads....on a car weighing 3500+ lbs. probably could turn the boost back some... and run at least mid 9's on pump gas+alky on DOT drag radials. There is no magic there... just a good combo of parts and alot of tuning..... both suspension and engine....... it really flies.

 

[mikebart101]

Big blocks are becoming a thing of the past. You can get alot of cubes out of a small block, which is always a better route given the weight advantage (faster and handles better). Plus twin 44's would be a little small for such a huge motor. Then ontop of that you'll be getting like 5 gallons per mile.
I would prefer a small cube V8 with good heads and a big turbo. Handles well, rides well, gets good mpg, is fast and can rpm like crazy.

I totally agree when it comes to racing and you have no problem rebuilding the motor many times, but reliability wise I would go with a lot of cubes. Admittedly you have to deal with the weight but the large displacement and stronger parts will benefit you in the long run. You don't need to push a big block to its limits to achieve 900hp reliably whereas a small block will be screamin for its life when the power starts to pass this point. Maybe it will hold together for longer than you expect but I would rather spend the extra bread for a big ass engine and have it last thousands of miles, especially if Im planning on building the meanest street car around :biggrin:

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Don't discount the SBC. I personally saw Dust Bradford go low 8's at like 16x.xx mph on drag radials with one turbo.... on a 383 SBC with a dart block and Track1 heads....on a car weighing 3500+ lbs. probably could turn the boost back some... and run at least mid 9's on pump gas+alky on DOT drag radials. There is no magic there... just a good combo of parts and alot of tuning..... both suspension and engine....... it really flies.

Thanks for the comments. It went 8.30's at 168+ and is still streetable. A combo like mine would no doubt run low 9's on straight 93. With alky it would still be an 8 second car.

mikebart101 For what you're wanting to do a big block would be a good choice. The stock block small block engines become a weak link in the 900hp range so a big block would be more durable if you don't want to go for an aftermarket block to build a high hp small block. That jeg's enigine looks about right for your goals but the cam would need to be changed. Probably cost around $300-500 to swap cam if the springs need changing also. You could actually use a good set of stock cast iron manifolds and just build a pipe to each turbo for a budget kit and would still hold up. I'd put twin 60's on it. With a 454 your still only 227ci per turbo so spooling and exhaust flow would be very similiar to the Buick V6 and would be the best choice for your goals. The problem with a single on the big block is that you only want to make 1000 hp or so which doesn't require a very large turbo. With that many inches you'd have back pressure issues unless you had a true large frame turbo like a 91mm which would be more turbo than you need and you could get two 44's or 60's for less $$. Twins would be the best route.

As far as putting it to the ground. I have a basic 8 point roll cage with completely stock front suspension. Some cheapo comp engineering front shocks. Rear suspension is the entire Wolfe racing set-up with single sway bar. There was some suspension tuning going on but it's no magic involved. You just have to throw the power at it to keep the weight on the rear tires which means you need a really good boost controller to control how much power to apply and how soon. That's what made my combo come around....the boost controller.

 

[gnx7]

There are many guys making 1000hp with stock LS1 blocks/cranks, stock LS6 intake, ported stock TB, stock coil packs etc. The only pricey parts on them are some ported heads $2200, forged rods/pistons. There has not been a crankshaft/block failure to date with guys making this kind of power.

They are also using stock 5.3/6.0 truck exhaust manifolds for the hot side of the turbo kit and for under $100 you have your manifolds that aren't prone to cracking and flow well.

It would be worth some research.

I'm building an LS7 that should do 140mph+ in the 1/4 n/a on 91 octane. With nitrous it should go 160mph. Daily driver.

LSx technology is some very nice stuff (individual coil packs per cylinder, strong blocks, abundance of parts and strong aftermarket suppliers, heads that flow lots of air 380cfm+).
-Mark

 

[VadersV6]

I totally agree when it comes to racing and you have no problem rebuilding the motor many times, but reliability wise I would go with a lot of cubes. Admittedly you have to deal with the weight but the large displacement and stronger parts will benefit you in the long run. You don't need to push a big block to its limits to achieve 900hp reliably whereas a small block will be screamin for its life when the power starts to pass this point. Maybe it will hold together for longer than you expect but I would rather spend the extra bread for a big ass engine and have it last thousands of miles, especially if Im planning on building the meanest street car around :biggrin:

Just because an engine is small doesnt mean its going to have less reliability, especially if you do it right. There are plenty of people out there making huge hp/small motor combos that are very reliable. I know of A 331 cube small block ford with AFR 225 heads and a moderately sized turbo, making 1000hp on something like 10psi. It was making 800 on 8psi....basically 100hp for every 1psi. With the right hardware...not even the best...just intelligent parts selection and machining. Hell, 30 years ago they were running 8's with naturally aspirated 327's in Pro-Stock. Yeah I know thats not a reliable example, but we've come a long way in 30 years. The turbo big block was being done in pro-street cars back in the mid 80's. The parts are available now for a big HP, light motor that gets good mpg.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Just because an engine is small doesnt mean its going to have less reliability, especially if you do it right. There are plenty of people out there making huge hp/small motor combos that are very reliable. I know of A 331 cube small block ford with AFR 225 heads and a moderately sized turbo, making 1000hp on something like 10psi. It was making 800 on 8psi....basically 100hp for every 1psi. With the right hardware...not even the best...just intelligent parts selection and machining. Hell, 30 years ago they were running 8's with naturally aspirated 327's in Pro-Stock. Yeah I know thats not a reliable example, but we've come a long way in 30 years. The turbo big block was being done in pro-street cars back in the mid 80's. The parts are available now for a big HP, light motor that gets good mpg.

I think he's looking at saving the cost of the aftermarket block. A small block like mine can make the power but you need a DART or equal block. He wants 1000hp or so in which case a big block is a good choice for money spent. A stock block with Eagle rotating assembly will handle it.

The LS1 would also be a good choice like mentioned. The big block would be cheaper but the LS1 lighter.

 

[mikebart101]

Thanx for all the input guys, especially Dusty. Budget wise, I think the big block is the cheaper route. I would like a small block but the brute force and mighty punch from a torquey BB is just overwhelmingly beautiful :biggrin: Additionally I plan on putting this motor in a 1965 lincoln continental street monster. Big car needs a big engine to fill that bay.

A couple rides in my dad's 427 side-oiler has sealed the deal. Shifting from 1st to 4th is just awesome.

 

[VadersV6]

I think he's looking at saving the cost of the aftermarket block. A small block like mine can make the power but you need a DART or equal block. He wants 1000hp or so in which case a big block is a good choice for money spent. A stock block with Eagle rotating assembly will handle it.
The LS1 would also be a good choice like mentioned. The big block would be cheaper but the LS1 lighter.

After magnafluxing, drilling out of the oil passages and other oiling mods, polishing all the casting flash off to a dull polish, adding 4 bolt splayed steel caps, a steel main girdle with a good line hone, a square decking, and the newly developed lifter valley girdle, you can make some serious power on a stock block. Naturally this adds up, but I would personally rather do that than go with a big block. Dont get me wrong. I LOVE big block power, (thats why I got a GN) but when you can get big block power out of a small block which is lighter, gets better mileage, and has almost half the friction and pumping losses...ya know. If you call a good racing engine shop, they usually know of someone selling a top notch, used race motor for cheap, with the best of everything, that can handle huge power. We had engines like that coming and going all the time....$20-$25k worth of parts and labor, and 1 racing season, yet they would only ask 5k for the complete motor.
If you run a small/big, dual turbo setup, you can get the instant spool of the small turbo, giving it that big block punch, and the big turbo for the top end pull. Oh yeah...my point was that there are some people running 9's with n/a LT1's in camaros, without serious mods. Slap on a couple turbos, and it would be insane. I think an LT1 crate motor with the mods I mentioned plus some AFR heads off ebay, and a couple turbos would more than please the need for speed. Ive been in many big block cars, and the work needed to keep the cars from sliding into a fire hydrant while turning a corner is ridiculous. Weight distribution sucks. Plus weight transfer is alot happier with a small block...and weight transfer is PRETTY important when you make that kind of power.
A big block with turbos is just gunna spin the tires for 6 miles straight. What fun is that? Plus you'll have to refill the tank after that 6 mile burnout.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

After magnafluxing, drilling out of the oil passages and other oiling mods, polishing all the casting flash off to a dull polish, adding 4 bolt splayed steel caps, a steel main girdle with a good line hone, a square decking, and the newly developed lifter valley girdle, you can make some serious power on a stock block. Naturally this adds up, but I would personally rather do that than go with a big block. Dont get me wrong. I LOVE big block power, (thats why I got a GN) but when you can get big block power out of a small block which is lighter, gets better mileage, and has almost half the friction and pumping losses...ya know. If you call a good racing engine shop, they usually know of someone selling a top notch, used race motor for cheap, with the best of everything, that can handle huge power. We had engines like that coming and going all the time....$20-$25k worth of parts and labor, and 1 racing season, yet they would only ask 5k for the complete motor.
If you run a small/big, dual turbo setup, you can get the instant spool of the small turbo, giving it that big block punch, and the big turbo for the top end pull. Oh yeah...my point was that there are some people running 9's with n/a LT1's in camaros, without serious mods. Slap on a couple turbos, and it would be insane. I think an LT1 crate motor with the mods I mentioned plus some AFR heads off ebay, and a couple turbos would more than please the need for speed. Ive been in many big block cars, and the work needed to keep the cars from sliding into a fire hydrant while turning a corner is ridiculous. Weight distribution sucks. Plus weight transfer is alot happier with a small block...and weight transfer is PRETTY important when you make that kind of power.
A big block with turbos is just gunna spin the tires for 6 miles straight. What fun is that? Plus you'll have to refill the tank after that 6 mile burnout.

True. But he can buy a short block or long block already assembled with the parts he needs for a great price. No need for girdles with the Chevy stuff. If it's going in a 65 continental weight probably isn't an issue.

 

[VadersV6]

Yeah I hear ya...cant argue with a guy runnin 5's in the 1/8 with a small block
Im just all about efficiency. My realtor/friend has a mercedes S600 twin turbo V12. Its a V12, but its a farily smll cube motor, and that thing really surprised the **** out of me. The car weighs like 5000+ pounds and pulls like a monster. I figure if you can get the performance you want and still save mpg, for a good price, why not. i think an 800hp turbo SBC can be put together for close to what this guy is going to pay for a big block with fuel injection, custom exhaust, etc. I can see a SBC being put together that can handle the hp for not THAT much money. I mean this crate motor alone is 5k.
There are small blocks through Jegs that can be modded to handle the hp for the same 5k budget, or maybe a little more as the big block. Given he plans on going with fuel injection, which cant be cheap, Im wondering what this engine would cost after adding 4 bolt splayed steel caps, a main girdle, and good rods/pistons. It already has the fuel injection setup.

350 fuel injected

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I agree. 800 is doable with a reasonable SBC, 1000 is a different story. Depends on what he really wants in the end.

 

[VadersV6]

Doing some simple optimistic math, starting with a 350hp, 400lb ft motor, add 15psi, and Im seeing roughly 700hp and 800lb ft. Plus given the stock power curve, the end result would have alot of low end grunt. Should be enough to get the lincoln to the grocery store in a hurry.