Tso tsm ths

[gbsean]

let me preface this as it is not a thread to start a bitch session, but how to figure out how to increase the car count. I do not know where the best place to to post this so if you move thread it is fine by me.

As you know the BPG hosted a Buick event this past weekend and to be honest it was disappointing car count for these classes and I as head of the BPG I am wondering what can be done to increase the car count. Let me first stress that a lax in Safety requirements for the cars is not going to happen. I know we paid out over 13K in cash and Gift Certificates from various donors. The BPG paid out even though there was not a full car count in each class.(min 8 cars). I know there was an issue with a TSM car wanting to Run TSO but that is not the BPG's call.

I aka the BPG are looking to increase the car count for these classes...Now I know that the economy plays a major part but for the past years it seems there has not been a full field.

Are the rules too restrictive...can you combine TSO and TSM or post it publicly that any TSM car can run with TSO..to make a full field...

Again just asking how the BPG can increase the car count and maybe roll it over to the other events....I know with talking to those that attended the past 2 events we had a great car count...even if you take away the V8 cars.

please post constructive input as all the Clubs and Events can benefit.

 

[KevinB]

It was just bad timing for ths. I know if at least 4 people who all had every intention to race but last minute issues prevented that. I know of at least 3 more that did not attend because of the strict safety rules....but I know that only lies on the owner not the bpg. I put a bar in my car against my liking so I can race.
We had 4 cars in eliminations, had 5 qualify but lost the 5th car do to a bad turbo.

So, if you take the 5 plus the 7 that should have been there, that makes a 12 car field which would have been kick ass.

As far as tsm and tso, I know of about 4-5 of those cars that are not around to race those classes anymore.

 

[sackracing]

I am building a TSM car, but kid's activities / heat / funds are keeping it going at a snail's pace. I will attend the BPG next year.

 

[SS/GN]

I do not race in this class,however the tighter you keep the rules the more control you have over the build cost in a heads up class.Everytime you allow a new mod the cost goes up.Ex. allow wheelie bars and guys can put more power to the ground and et"s go up.Many savy racers use the "safety "word as a way of getting rules passed.I am in no way directing this at any of the competitors ,this is just my obsevation after being involved in an NHRA superstock class..I am hopeing to race at a Buick event next year,but it will be in the bracket classes.Good luck I hope this continues to grow as it is very interesting:biggrin:

Kevin

 

[gnxtc2]

I hope I don't offend anyone but this how I look at this issue.

The issue that you're going to have is payout per class. Unless the driver/race has a love of this sport, the car count will keep on going down.

Yes, you stated that you had 13K in payouts but divide that amount into each class.

If it costs $500 in fuel to get to the track, then the payouts should be atleast $500 for the driver/racer to break even. If X class pays $150 to the winner and $50 to runner up, why should one even attend? Then there is payouts in a form of gift certificates. If you win the class, you'll get a gift certificate of $xxx amount to spend. What if I don't need anything from that company, now I have a gift certificate that I can't use.

Rumor has it that National Trail is owned by the NHRA and bet your a$$ tech will be strict.

Bottom line, the event co-ordinator needs to do something to attract the racer. Having guess speakers, re-union shows, etc, etc is all dandy for the car show enthusiant but does little for the racer.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[toofastforyou]

I have some personal opinions for not attending these events:
1° There are too many classes. No wonder why there are sometimes only 3-4 cars in each of them!
2° The rules are too restrictive and most of the time, seem to favor the guys who build their cars specifically to fit in a class or another. Also, while looking at the rules, I can't help but realize that there's always something making my car "not eligible" to compete in these classes, or if there is a class in which I could compete, it would be against some guys running in the 8's!...yeah, sure... Where's the "fun factor" in that? :frown:
3° Building my car to "fit" in a class that is featured at only a handful of events, especially when none of these events are held in my area, is not interesting for me. I'd rather build my car the WAY I WANT IT to race in bracket classes anywhere I want to go.:wink: This brings me to heads-up vs. bracket racing: Simply put, I prefer bracket racing because it gives EVERYONE (fast or not) a fair chance at winning something, and not only the ones with the fastest cars like it often turns out in heads up racing.

That is my opinion.

Thank you,

Claude.

P.S: like "gnxtc2" just said, "the driver/race has a love of this sport" should be the main reason for going racing because if you're hoping to make a profit out of it, you'd better invest in something else!

 

[quickt]

Lots of talk about payout bringing out the racer. To date I don't see it. It just does not work IMO. But Sure does not hurt for a guy to have a little scratch to take home.

Race Rules - You will never come up with any set of rules that everyone agrees to. Racers cant seem to figure out that the more RACE PARTS you allow the faster the classes will go. Then you have cars that have the race parts and now wont race using the excuse the class is too fast. The same parts they lobbied to allow in the class just put them further behind the curve. Set the rules leave them alone let the complainers move on. Or open the rules to anything goes other than Turbo, Weight, Tire size and see what happens. What the Hell no one has tried that yet in the smaller turbo classes. I would love to see it tried with like a 63mm turbo limit.

Heads Up Index racing - IMO needs to be considered. Still has its issues. If you index a set of class rules some racers will still complain they are to restrictive others will complain that they are bracket racing. I think Index racing still needs to be based on a set of rules and I do believe it can be successful if a reasonable index can be found. Some feel more comfortable that the index levels the playing field. Index with open rules and you are bracket racing.

In the old days the Event mainly BG posted a set of rules. You came to race or you didnt. End of story. The first year of TSM when we contacted the different events we proposed that we orchestrate the race and they gave us the time to race. This removed the event from dealing with the racers, Race rules etc. All they needed to do is lay out the time for qualifying, race rounds and hand over a ladder. The rest is history. This is now the way race classes are done. Maybe an event needs to go back to the old system. This would surely remove the politics and special interest. Post the class rules that are used at other events tech and handle everything. This worked great for Jim Hass when he was involved. (TSM was TMS) I will say another thing for Jim. He would call you and ask you to come race. Thank you for showing up when you got there and do his best to see that you were having a good time.

Just some opinions and ideas.

 

[GNBRETT]

how hot was the track? I can only imagine 135+ degrees. it was africa hot those days everywhere this side of the country.

 

[toofastforyou]

Why not keep it more simple and do like Raceway Park at Englishtown, NJ did: have several bracket classes (like B1, B2, B3, etc...) based on depending how fast the car runs, and another "heads-up" run-what-'ya-brung" or "Quick 16" class for those who prefer heads-up racing? It seems to me that it would be the "best of both worlds"! :wink:

Claude.

 

[BadAssGN]

My Take on low car counts...

I see THS taking off in a big way. it is very affordable, however we are already seeing trends we saw in the other heads up classes.

There are High priced parts you have to have in order to compete. Like the big dollar THS legal Turbo. I hope they put the brakes on any changes to this class.


Both TSM and TSO are way out of reach of most. Mainly because no one wants to build a car that runs dead last. you want the best of everything so you can compete. Which is very expensive.

TSO cars are incredible cars pushing the V6 to the limit, the problems I see with these cars are most have a 8.50 cert cage, and we have TSO cars in the 7s. the other issue is what class can they run in when there is no Buick event? Drag radial? 10.5 outlaw? nope can't compete with half of those cars...


I think TSO needs major changes to make the cars run Deep 7s so there is an appeal to build a car that can be used in a local series and a buick event.

 

[SGRIM]

Well so far the TB nationals have about most of this covered... We offer classes for EVERY CAR MADE:biggrin:

Billy the first year we paid TSM and TSO class winners I think $1500 a piece I offered more this year but still no car count... Throwing money at it doesn't appear to be the answer either. Look how much Mr. Clark is offering in the TSA class

Keep the idea's rolling, good thread Sean!

 

[KevinB]

My Take on low car counts...

I see THS taking off in a big way. it is very affordable, however we are already seeing trends we saw in the other heads up classes.

There are High priced parts you have to have in order to compete. Like the big dollar THS legal Turbo. I hope they put the brakes on any changes to this class.


Both TSM and TSO are way out of reach of most. Mainly because no one wants to build a car that runs dead last. you want the best of everything so you can compete. Which is very expensive.

TSO cars are incredible cars pushing the V6 to the limit, the problems I see with these cars are most have a 8.50 cert cage, and we have TSO cars in the 7s. the other issue is what class can they run in when there is no Buick event? Drag radial? 10.5 outlaw? nope can't compete with half of those cars...


I think TSO needs major changes to make the cars run Deep 7s so there is an appeal to build a car that can used in a local series and a buick event.

Actually, there is no high dollar fancy ths turbo. Last year, the car that won the most had a te45a on it. I've seen those for sale used for around $500 on here. The fastest car last year had a 6765 which costs around $1100 which is pretty much the going rate for a new turbo. I think there is a used one on the board in the $800 range right now.
There were rules in the class to keep it budget minded like no aftermarket front control arms but that raised a huge stink, so they were allowed in.

 

[jasjamz]

If the fastest THS car was a 11.0-10.80 car more people would feel they could win. That's not the case, so taking your 10.90 car and running Kevin B. head up is not on some folks list. It wouldn't scare me off because anything can happen.
Kevin talked me into racing TSM last year, I qualified and I think I won a round because the other car had problems. Had to set the record for heaviest car ever to race in TSM LOL! I have never had more people asking me about my slow car at a track like that in my life! I will run THS and see how much luck I have there when I get the car done since its a class closer to my style of car. You should try your luck if your car fits the class especially if your at the event. Its for fun! The money is a bonus. Going down the track in an 11 second car vs a 13 second car isn't my idea of a race either.
I also feel that the parts on the faster cars in the class scare some away. The economy is still struggling so now isn't the time to buy a XFI, ported aluminum heads, billet Turbo, and a $3000 transmission and converter combo to race for ....what's the payout again If you can fit a class, get in! Hell, loosing to a heavily modded car doesn't bother me at all:biggrin:

Give it time guys. Once peoples bank accounts some more cushion and the car budgets are a little larger the classes will grow. Im sure THS will much sooner than the rest.

 

[Tiretoter]

As for the BPG Event:

An August event is just TOO hot to have a drag race. The track temp is 135+, air temp in the asphalt pits 115+. Just too hot, and most drag racers aint gonna go for that. The cars dont run good, staging lanes are BRUTAL, too hard on personnel, parts and cars. Did I mention August is just too hot to hold a drag race? In fact, rumor has it an elderly fellow nearly died a couple years ago at the BPG event due to the heat.

As for car counts being down at all events:

1. TOO MANY EVENTS!!! The dwindling size of the racer pool has too many events to choose from. Those who are still racing even thru the bad economy will usually pick a race closer to home to cut expenses.

2. Bad economy. Racers and Vendors alike, with very few exceptions, are struggling. Many drag cars today that break go up on the jack stands and under the car cover.

3. High fuel prices (Diesel $3.99/gal, V114 $11.00/gal)

And several other reasons that have been hashed and rehashed, but the above are the primary reasons IMOHO.

 

[SGRIM]

As for the BPG Event:

An August event is just TOO hot to have a drag race. The track temp is 135+, air temp in the asphalt pits 115+. Just too hot, and most drag racers aint gonna go for that. The cars dont run good, staging lanes are BRUTAL, too hard on personnel, parts and cars. Did I mention August is just too hot to hold a drag race? In fact, rumor has it an elderly fellow nearly died a couple years ago at the BPG event due to the heat.

As for car counts being down at all events:

1. TOO MANY EVENTS!!! The dwindling size of the racer pool has too many events to choose from. Those who are still racing even thru the bad economy will usually pick a race closer to home to cut expenses.

2. Bad economy. Racers and Vendors alike, with very few exceptions, are struggling. Many drag cars today that break go up on the jack stands and under the car cover.

3. High fuel prices (Diesel $3.99/gal, V114 $11.00/gal)

And several other reasons that have been hashed and rehashed, but the above are the primary reasons IMOHO.

Agreed!

 

[gbsean]

do not think Heat was a factor as many Cars were into the 8's and one into 7's...of coarse that was not a V6...do not think payouts make any difference...we paid $1000 to first and $500 to second...for a 3 car count in TSO. $1800 to that class. We had over 24 cars try to get into the Q16 program. BCO had a full field as did both the bracket classes. It just seems to be a V6 issue...as in the V8 fields there are not that many classes as there are in V6. Maybe have a turbo heads up class run what you brung...Because from a Event stand point the $480 that came thru the gate for the 4 TSO cars does not cover the payout even with donations from Vendors...now I know they bring wives and buddies and that gets close, but add in track cost etc The BPG has to decide if it worth having TSO and TSM and maybe just create a Heads up Turbo Class...

Good ideas and comments in this thread and I think it can benefit all Event organizers and participants...

 

[Grumpy]

What the Hell no one has tried that yet in the smaller turbo classes. I would love to see it tried with like a 63mm turbo limit.

We threw that out years ago.. Didn't fly although I do agree with that

 

[sackracing]

3 classes is not too many. Early on there was TSS, TSE and quick 16, which was a bracket race for what is now TSO cars. The first two classes would still be around if the G S C A had not changed the rules to fit Red's cars. The issue is probably that most guys have moved on to other forms of racing and V8s.

 

[sackracing]

Lonnie is right about the index racing, it's pretty big here local and at the NMCA events. It's my only option for the local heads up races.

 

[GSX-PKV]

Years ago there was a Hot Rod Power Festival at Route 66 in Chicago. They had indexed heads up racing from a pro tree. 10.0, 11.0, 12.0 etc... You had 4 qualifying runs and tried to get as close as possible the index time without going faster. Then a bracket was formed from the qualifiers for the race. It was fun and there were no rules to adhere to, except of course safety rules.