TH400 pump noise...

[yullose]

Yep, next time around I will build it myself.

Unfortunately, I sold most of my tranny tools years ago, so I'll need to buy some of that stuff again.

The two best tools I had were the piston compressor and the cradle that hangs the trans case off the workbench. I still have a few gizmos that look like a feeler gage, used to install the lip seals.

Hopefully I won't need to buy any of it soon.

 

[KL Mallender]

I feel your pain bud's, seems you've had your share of troubles this past year.
You are correct in thinking someone is jerking you around, if the metal in the pan/fluid is non-ferrous(non-magnetic) it has few places to come from in a 400, apply pistons and case come to mind, I would be cautious/skeptical untill someone can show you where it "DID" come from, you should stop in to see internals before he puts her back together, and see what clearences he set clutches and end plays to, nobody likes a comeback, but if he is lying about something small....you can damm sure bet he will lie for bigger problems.
Good Luck.

Kevin.

ps: did you get that "diesel" roller out of there yet and go to a real cam?

 

[chris718]

You should give the buiders at this forum a try when you need a trans.We are all familiar with what needs to be done for Turbo Buicks.As far as a 400 brake goes ,there really isnt anything that works better than what I have spent the last 5 years tweaking.Revolutionary design without all of the lo pressure cant do bull**** from the big name companies that have simply copied the originals and make an anodized spacer plate to make theres look different.

 

[yullose]

The only reason I went back to this builder is because I've been using him for the last several years and have gotten good stuff from him before. Being that he's fairly local, also helps.
Between my brother and I, we've used 4 of his transmissions and one Rossler.
This is the first time I've had a problem.

I'll put this box back in the car the way it is... If it makes noise again, I'll just pull it out again and build it myself.

 

[yullose]

I feel your pain bud's, seems you've had your share of troubles this past year.
You are correct in thinking someone is jerking you around, if the metal in the pan/fluid is non-ferrous(non-magnetic) it has few places to come from in a 400, apply pistons and case come to mind, I would be cautious/skeptical untill someone can show you where it "DID" come from, you should stop in to see internals before he puts her back together, and see what clearences he set clutches and end plays to, nobody likes a comeback, but if he is lying about something small....you can damm sure bet he will lie for bigger problems.
Good Luck.

Kevin.

ps: did you get that "diesel" roller out of there yet and go to a real cam?

The metal was definitely non-magnetic... as I ran a magnet through the oil and it came up empty.
I already have the trans back from him too, so it's too late for my own personal inspection. I'm just waiting for the converter to come back from Kenny.

And no, Kev... that diesel roller is still in the car. I haven't touched the motor since I put the big beehive springs on it.

I'll probably put a solid roller in it sometime early next season.

 

[Alky V6]

I don't see why everyone is blaming the trans for non-magnetic debris. I would be looking real carefully at the converter if that's what I found. Is this particular T/C using a steel stator versus an aluminum?

The pump housing bushing is a real good indicator of where the debris may have come from. If the bushing has a lot of metal embedded in it, then the T/C is high on the suspect list. If the bushing has only a light amount of embedded metal, then the trans is suspect.

I'm not surprised that no one found anything.

 

[yullose]

I'm not surprised that no one found anything.

And here is my problem.

As much as I'd like to give benefit of the doubt to both, someone is feeding me crap. I don't know either one of them well enough to say one way or another. I can only assume at this point, the non-magnetic debris could only have come from the trans. The noise however, WAS RPM specific.. meaning the noise would go up/down with the RPM's, just like a converter or pump noise. Didn't matter if it was in gear, neutral or park. The best way to describe it... is it sounded like a geardrive setup or an old powerglide.

And yes, the converter has a steel stator in it.

 

[Alky V6]

And here is my problem.

As much as I'd like to give benefit of the doubt to both, someone is feeding me crap. I don't know either one of them well enough to say one way or another. I can only assume at this point, the non-magnetic debris could only have come from the trans. The noise however, WAS RPM specific.. meaning the noise would go up/down with the RPM's, just like a converter or pump noise. Didn't matter if it was in gear, neutral or park. The best way to describe it... is it sounded like a geardrive setup or an old powerglide.

And yes, the converter has a steel stator in it.

Even the steel stator in my Neal Chance has aluminum bearing caps.

 

[chris718]

It is not uncommon for pump gear to rub the crescent .This does generate noise ad debris.I once had a customer run a 400 dry for 2 minutes and it destroyed the pump accordingly.Not saying thats what happened but it happened in this case.

 

[Alky V6]

It is not uncommon for pump gear to rub the crescent .This does generate noise ad debris.I once had a customer run a 400 dry for 2 minutes and it destroyed the pump accordingly.Not saying thats what happened but it happened in this case.

That would create magnetic debris.

 

[chris718]

Yes i know but it goes to show how things can go wrong

 

[KL Mallender]

Both Donnie and Chris are trying to share their experience in what they see day in, day out, every work day, things that shouldn't happen sometimes do, and BOTH of them have strong engineering experience in mechanical designs.
Mechanical devices are "supposed" to be logical, and normally are :tongue:
But Cars and Chaos share more than a few letters at times,
Art, you mentioned that familar "gear whine" noise which is NOT normal for a 400...ever.
I'll go with internal pump gear rubbing itself into the pump cresent, which would "normally" produce magnetic debris.
Now.. what is causing the rub?
1. Pump halves not properly aligned, doesn't take much when you have a "tight" or non worn pump, (finding a un-worn 350/400 pump cover is rare these days)
2. Pump bushing damaged or excessively worn could load gears with converter weight causing rub and bushing material is non-magnetic.
That sparkle in your fluid came from someplace, bottom line.
Hopefully you get a trans/converter back that works perfectly, but has builder found reason for "soft" third gear yet? For your sake and sanity I hope he has.
Good Luck.

Kevin.

 

[Alky V6]

I'll add this since no one else has yet. The 400 filter is fairly borderline when it comes to extra capacity. They plug easily. A plugged filter will cause pump noise. If there was enough floating fine debris, it would most likely plug a 400 filter pretty quick.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Even the steel stator in my Neal Chance has aluminum bearing caps.

The only thing aluminum in his converter is the spragless insert in the stator. It would be easily noticed if this was the cause.

Judging by his description of the size of the metal pieces found in the pan, I was confident it was a trans issue.

 

[yullose]

My concern now is... did my trans builder find and correct the problem ? lying to me about fvcking up ? OR... did he not tear it down far enough and completely missed the problem ?

I guess we're 'gonna find out as soon as the converter gets here. :wink:

And to add... it's difficult to tell... but the fine particles in the oil almost look like brass filings.

 

[yullose]

UPDATE:

Everything is back together again... and wouldn't you know... the noise is GONE.


I didn't bother driving it yet, since it's so cold out, traction would be a problem anyway. (I also need to get more C16)

Either way, the pump noise is completely gone now and I'm a happy camper.

One thing I noticed without driving it yet... is it has a much harsher "thud" when it goes into gear now. Before, it was pretty soft.

I wonder if there was a pump pressure problem or fukkup that my builder didn't disclose when he had it apart.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Good to hear this news

 

[yullose]

I just wish I knew WTF the trans builder did that caused the problem in the first place.

It HAD to be something stupid and obvious, since he called me withing 40 minutes of dropping the trans and leaving his shop. I wonder if he had the pump gasket in wrong or the pump bypass was stuck or something.