TH400 pump noise...

[yullose]

How much, if any is normal ?

I just finally finished my swap to a 400... and on the maiden voyage,(approx 5miles easy driving) noticed some noise coming from the pump area once it got hot. I've never heard a noisey one before, except the old powerglides that were notoriuos for it. It sounds almost like a 'glide, but not quite as loud.
When it was cold, I didn't hear anything at all... only once it warmed up and I had driven a couple miles.

I do recall the trans builder mentioning something about an "8-bolt pump" when I dropped off the cores. Apparently one of the cores had this better pump in it and he wanted to use it in my build.

Is any noise normal for the 400's ???

It's after 5pm and my tranny guy is gone till Monday... so I had to post this here or it will eat away at me all weekend.

The trans otherwise shifts good and fluid still looks nice.

Dusty nailed the converter... Zero boost on the transbrake went to 3200 no problem. It spools quick and the motor wants to rev alot faster. The only other thing that I noticed different... is 3rd gear can hardly be felt under light accel. I assume the loose converter is just swallowing up the jolt.

I just want to know if the pump noise is normal or not.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

My "friendly" 1969 T/S manual states:
Pump noise
cavitation
low oil level
plugged filter
wrong filter
intake pipe o'ring damaged
porosity in case @ pump face intake port
pump to case gasket off location

Pump assy
gears damaged
driving gear in backwards
crescent interference
orifice cup plug in reg is damaged or missing
seal rings damaged

 

[yullose]

I'll run it again tomorrow when it's good and cold... to see if it quiets down when cold again.

It's possible I may have kinked one of the cooler lines under the car and got it too hot.

Edit to add...

I'll bet the fvcking thing has to come back out. Mutherfukker.

After sitting 3hrs and cooling down, it still makes noise when I fire it up.

Maybe tomorrow I'll drop the pan and see if the filter fell off or something.

 

[Alky V6]

The noise is not normal. Don't drive it anymore and drop the pan to make sure it's not making tons of metal.

 

[yullose]

The noise is not normal. Don't drive it anymore and drop the pan to make sure it's not making tons of metal.

Well, I dropped the pan and the fluid has alot of metallic shimmer to it. There were also a few small slivers of metal in the bottom, looked almost like drill chips. Nothing stuck to the magnet, so I assume a bearing is knocked out of it somewhere.
I pulled the converter bolts and spun it in the pump... and it seems nice and free, with no friction at all.

I'm getting too old to do this crap anymore. I sure didn't want to lay on the floor and pull the trans AGAIN after just putting the damn thing in.

I wonder if it's related to the soft 3rd shift at all... At no time, even testing on the jackstands, did I actually feel a thud or shift from 2-3. Even on the road test, it seemed like a lazy 2-3 shift.
I keep trying to blame the loose converter, or possibly something I did... but doggon it, this was a textbook, hassle-free install. Everything went together smooth as butter.

 

[Alky V6]

The 2-3 shift on a 400 can be hard to notice. That's normal for an overrun type of shift. When you do get used to picking up the 2-3 shift, just make sure the shift is quick and not drawn out (slipping).

Sorry to hear about the metal.

 

[yullose]

The 2-3 shift on a 400 can be hard to notice. That's normal for an overrun type of shift. When you do get used to picking up the 2-3 shift, just make sure the shift is quick and not drawn out (slipping).

Sorry to hear about the metal.

Well, to be honest, I really didn't drive the car enough to really test it or lean on it... but I do recall my "spidey-sense" was telling me "something doesn't feel right" when I shifted to 3rd. That was long before any noise developed, and felt that way from the very first time I pulled the shifter into 3rd.
I've had loose converters before, and I've had several tranny's done by this particular builder... and never before could I NOT at least feel or sense a 2-3 shift. Even with a loose converter, I should at least feel a quick thud or some RPM/load change on the 2-3 shift. SOMETHING at least... but in this case, I honestly couldn't tell when it went into 3rd at all. It just seemed really slow and lazy.
The 1-2 shift was firm and crisp, enough to chirp tires under very light throttle. 2-3 however, was mush.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Len had some noise at BG after a converter swap. After he re-shimmed the converter the noise went away.

I push the converter all the way in the trans, bolt the trans to the engine and take some measurements. I pull the converter out of the trans 1/8 to 3/16 and use shims or washers as needed to keep these measurements.

Sounds yours is making some metal somewhere so this probably won't help other than just a reminder that improper spacing can create a noise as well.

 

[yullose]

Len had some noise at BG after a converter swap. After he re-shimmed the converter the noise went away.

I push the converter all the way in the trans, bolt the trans to the engine and take some measurements. I pull the converter out of the trans 1/8 to 3/16 and use shims or washers as needed to keep these measurements.

Sounds yours is making some metal somewhere so this probably won't help other than just a reminder that improper spacing can create a noise as well.

Yeah, that was my first thought... but it's shimmed and spaced perfectly. I had to put a thin washer between the flexplate and converter to get it spot-on.

I'm starting to think it may have something to do with the mushy 2-3 shift.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Yeah, that was my first thought... but it's shimmed and spaced perfectly. I had to put a thin washer between the flexplate and converter to get it spot-on.

I'm starting to think it may have something to do with the mushy 2-3 shift.

Could be a trans issue. Like Don said, the 2-3 shift may be a bit mushy for several reasons. As far as the converter is concerned, the load of 3rd gear at a very low cruise rpm will make the converter feel loose.

 

[yullose]

Could be a trans issue. Like Don said, the 2-3 shift may be a bit mushy for several reasons. As far as the converter is concerned, the load of 3rd gear at a very low cruise rpm will make the converter feel loose.

I wonder if the pump whine is a result of the metallic oil circulating through it, and is completely unrelated to the actual problem ?

When I say "mushy 2-3 shift"... I mean there is NOTHING. Not even a hint of a gear change, regardless of the speed I was going, I never felt a 2-3 shift at all.

Well, it doesn't much matter now. The damn thing has to come back out anyway and will just cost me more money.
$50 worth of trans fluid and an hour each way to the trans shop.

I'll flush the converter and wait to see what the trans builder has to say.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Well, it doesn't much matter now. The damn thing has to come back out anyway and will just cost me more money.
$50 worth of trans fluid and an hour each way to the trans shop.

Oh the joy's of going faster If it was easy we'd all be running 5's:biggrin:

 

[yullose]

Oh the joy's of going faster If it was easy we'd all be running 5's:biggrin:

You know... the (not so) funny irony is... I removed a perfectly good, well-built 200R4 just so I WOULDN'T have to keep flip-flopping trannys.

I'd expect trouble from a 200... not a 400.

 

[Alky V6]

You can have assembly problems with any model transmission. When you do get everything squared away with the 400 you'll enjoy the unit.

 

[yullose]

You can have assembly problems with any model transmission. When you do get everything squared away with the 400 you'll enjoy the unit.

Yeah, I have no doubt about that.

I swapped to a TH400 in my previous GN and loved it.

This current TH400 combo in my GN feels REALLY strong compared to the tight Vigilante/200 I pulled out a couple weeks ago.

I didn't get a chance to really romp on it before the noise developed, but I did make a short mid-boost, top of 1st - into 2nd run when I pulled out at an intersection... All it wanted to do was fry the MT drag radials.

I think getting the car hooked-up on the street is 'gonna be a problem once I get the trans squared away.

The old combo would keep the RPMs below optimum. It would power-burn the tires a little, but stayed hooked because it would shift before it made good power in the upper RPMs.

This setup just wants to spool, RPM and burn rubber.

It was definitely a good move... just unfortunate I 'gotta pull it back apart already.

 

[Alky V6]

Pay particular attention when the 400 gets torn down. If it's not obvious that the trans was generating the metal,... all the contact surfaces look good, then you should have the TC checked out. A new TC can generate metal debris due to assembly problems just as easily as the transmission.

 

[yullose]

Pay particular attention when the 400 gets torn down. If it's not obvious that the trans was generating the metal,... all the contact surfaces look good, then you should have the TC checked out. A new TC can generate metal debris due to assembly problems just as easily as the transmission.

I'm leaning more toward a trans problem.
Right from the git-go, the 2-3 shift had been elusive. Even on the jackstands I couldn't determine when the shift occurred.
The converter is one of Dusty's PTC units.
I will flush it well, but I seriously doubt that it was a problem.


You know how your "gut" tells you "Something doesn't feels right" ? THAT is how I felt about the 2-3 shift / 3rd gear right away, from the moment I pulled it into gear. It was just too different from what I'd expect a loose converter to absorb. I know a loose converter will make it difficult to feel the 2-3 shift, but not so difficult it still feels like it's in 2nd gear when you pull it into 3rd. No RPM change, no load change, no thud, bump, etc... Nothing at all.
I really think it was just sliding slowly into 3rd and something was wrong from the beginning.

I'll find out soon enough. Tomorrow I'll call the builder and see if he has time for me to bring it up and wait while he pulls it apart.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

"I will flush it well, but I seriously doubt that it was a problem."
I doubt a "flush will suffice. If the crap from the trans went thru it, it's cut it apart time...
Of course.. Just my $.02.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

He's gonna drain it overnight and go from there. The large pieces he described as being in the pan sounds like the trans has an issue. The filter should catch that before it makes it to the converter but he's going to look into it to be sure.

 

[yullose]

I just spent the last 2 hours in the shop looking things over.

I wanted to be 100% sure it wasn't some fukkup on my part.

I doublechecked the slip yoke fit and driveshaft length. making sure the yoke wasn't pushing too far into the trans. Of course it's perfect.

I doublechecked my 3rd gear detent / shifter adjustment to be sure it was moving the spool valve to the correct detent in 3rd. Of course it was perfect.

The cooler lines are free, clear and unrestricted.

As much as I'd like to think I screwed up somewhere, I just don't see how it's possible. I've installed countless transmissions, even built a few myself that worked into the mid-8's... there is just no stone un-turned here on my part. This HAS to be a failure inside the trans.

99.9% of the metallic debris is extremely fine and non-magnetic. It looks like heavy metallic paint.
The few large pieces I found in the pan looked just like very thin drill chips. Maybe .250 x .250 x .005 thick... and only a half dozen of them. Those were non-magnetic also... 'sorta looked like bearing babbit.

The converter was sitting upside down all afternoon... and just a bit ago, I flushed it with some laquer thinner a few times, then several qts of ATF.
It's back in the drain pan upside down right now, and will remain there until I get the trans back.

I was really on the fence whether or not I should send the converter back for inspection... but converters are pretty redundant and rugged. I've been in this position before, and made out just fine with flushing and refilling.

When I get the trans back, I'll probably run it a few days and dump the fluid again just to be safe.

I can't wait to get it back to the builder... and hope he has time to tear it down while I wait.