Stock Turbo/Timing & Alc

[Mr86t-type]

Guys,

A few quick tuning questions, I finally made it to the track the other day for some tuning, and I feel the car is really running Great, my Combo:
Razors Alch kit(with Meth), Bone Stock Turbo, Stock Intercooler(with screen), Stock Injectors, Walbro Pump w/wiring upgrade, Power plate, Test pipe through 2-1/2" SS Dual exhaust. Of Course Mint 11,000orig mile car that was NEVER raced before I bought it 1.5 years ago
(Not guessing on that either, I know it for a Fact((but thats another Interesting Story))had 5 passes..turns out I pretty much had my car dialed in from my street tuning,

Weather was '60 degrees with Medium Humidity,
I was running ~22Lbs., with the Alch at the factory 5.5 setting and 93 Octane, No to VERY Little (1.2degree in one or two frames) knock, and Extremely Consistent 12.9s @ between 107.5-107.99, I had Erics chip at 24/23.5timing..now I know I could have turned DOWN the timing and ran higher Boost, but I 'Think' that might have slowed me down, as the factory turbo supposedly LIKES Timing..oh and SOFT 0-1Lb. launches (2.0060ft), on my 245 nittos (No need to Impress the EMPTY bleachers)..here are two of the five passes, the other three are Almost identical:

1. 2.052 60'
5.500 330'
8.361@86.16 1/8th
10.830 1000
12.913@107.99 1/4

2. 2.110 60'
5.504 330'
8.351@86.36 1/8th
10.818 1000
12.906@107.91 1/4

O2's started out at ~850 and slowly decreased to ~770 on VERY the Last Frame(typical for all five passes) of course 255 on the mass Air..

Now I Tried Upping the Boost to 23-24Lbs but had to quit due to KNOCK Counts coming on, ~3-4 degrees of retard, so I turned it back down.
So now the question being: "I thought the Stock Turbo ran Best with High timing, so should I LOWER the timing and Increase the boost??" and
"In order to Increse the Boost at the same timing, would Upping the Octane (little race gas mixed in) help with the Meth??"

 

[Razor]

Turn the alcohol up to 7 or 8.. use alcohol to control knock.
Get some tires to 60 foot better.

start with these

 

[Quiky One]

I was able to run 26 PSI (spiking to 28 that last 320') on 23/21 timing and 91 octane pumpgas with Julio's kit on my TTA.

I had my knob around 6 with no knock. Like Julio said, raise the alky! Sounds like the car is running great.

Jason

 

[Mr86t-type]

Turn the alcohol up to 7 or 8.. use alcohol to control knock.
Get some tires to 60 foot better.

start with these

Thanks, I'll give it a shot! Yea, I know the 60's suck, but I was launching easy, more interested in tuning...

 

[Mr86t-type]

I was able to run 26 PSI (spiking to 28 that last 320') on 23/21 timing and 91 octane pumpgas with Julio's kit on my TTA.

I had my knob around 6 with no knock. Like Julio said, raise the alky! Sounds like the car is running great.

Jason

Jason,

What Turbo is that, Stocker??

 

[Quiky One]

Yes sorry for not including that..that was my stocker.
Jason

 

[BLACK6PACK]

Keep the stock turbo between around 21-22 lbs of boost. After that, they're just blowing more hot air. With alky, you may be able to go higher, but I think you get better results with the stocker in the 21-22 range and play with timing instead of boost.

 

[Razor]

Keep the stock turbo between around 21-22 lbs of boost. After that, they're just blowing more hot air. With alky, you may be able to go higher, but I think you get better results with the stocker in the 21-22 range and play with timing instead of boost.

Not true.. look at Ed Brewers 11.37 combo on a stock turbo.. it was up to 28 on 1'st and 2nd.

Down to 23-24 in third..

At 21 PSI.. be lucky to break into the 11's.

 

[Mr86t-type]

Not true.. look at Ed Brewers 11.37 combo on a stock turbo.. it was up to 28 on 1'st and 2nd.

Down to 23-24 in third..At 21 PSI.. be lucky to break into the 11's.

Thanks razor, yea I remember reading about that, and Also the Air is still 'Somewhat' cool up here, I'll do some testing at higher Boost/Alch, if it Likes it, I'll try for Fridays Test & Tune....Just remembered to take out the Stock Intercooler screen the other day too, DAAA (not that that really makes any difference...)

 

[Mr86t-type]

Welp, OK, tryed adding alch to UP the Boost...and no matter How high I turned the knob, had it up to almost NINE, and STILL got knock on any additional Boost after 21PSI...timing back down to 23/21...and O2 numbers starting out in the 820's and ending at 750's...

On the plus side at only 19PSI and 0.0 knock, the car ran a 12.820@106.80 in the 85 degree weather...Launching on only 1-4psi, more interested in tuning now than ET...

 

[Razor]

Welp, OK, tryed adding alch to UP the Boost...and no matter How high I turned the knob, had it up to almost NINE, and STILL got knock on any additional Boost after 21PSI...timing back down to 23/21...and O2 numbers starting out in the 820's and ending at 750's...

On the plus side at only 19PSI and 0.0 knock, the car ran a 12.820@106.80 in the 85 degree weather...Launching on only 1-4psi, more interested in tuning now than ET...

Your O2's are coming down hard. I would check fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, filter, etc parts of the fuel system for issues.

If the fuel pressure drops hard.. no amount of alcohol can fix that.

HTH

 

[scojack_2001]

I ran a best of 11.98 on the stock turbo. Boost was about 26psi. Had some 87/104 mix in the tank to bring the octane up a little. Also gave it timing as well. And a good mid 1.6 60' too.

 

[Mr86t-type]

Your O2's are coming down hard. I would check fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, filter, etc parts of the fuel system for issues.

If the fuel pressure drops hard.. no amount of alcohol can fix that.

HTH

You are Again Correct, put the FP Gauge on the windshield and made a few passes, at 21PSI I'm only getting 57-58PSI - NOT GOOD - so it's a Call to Jack at Racetronix on Monday for a New FP Kit - I knew when i bought my Current Pump from Kirbans in Jan 2007 it was against my better Judgement, I've heard he still has older WP 307's being boxed - guess thats what I got!! Oh well....

And YES Scojack, I'm well aware of your 11something at 109mph at 27PSI or something....keep in mind that I've gone a best of 107.99MPH at only 19PSI so far..obviously running lean..with an ALL STOCK BPU package, Wanna guess what I'll MPH at 26PSI with a PROPER Pump in there..and I Don't really care to Launch my car hard as THIS cars to Nice to BEAT THE BAG out of it!!

 

[Razor]

The 307 is a very capable pump. Just make sure electrical connections both power and grounds are 110%

Do the filter while your at it as well.

Keep us posted.

 

[QUIP'6']

Guys,

A few quick tuning questions, I finally made it to the track the other day for some tuning, and I feel the car is really running Great, my Combo:
Razors Alch kit(with Meth), Bone Stock Turbo, Stock Intercooler(with screen), Stock Injectors, Walbro Pump w/wiring upgrade, Power plate, Test pipe through 2-1/2" SS Dual exhaust. Of Course Mint 11,000orig mile car that was NEVER raced before I bought it 1.5 years ago
(Not guessing on that either, I know it for a Fact((but thats another Interesting Story))had 5 passes..turns out I pretty much had my car dialed in from my street tuning,

Weather was '60 degrees with Medium Humidity,
I was running ~22Lbs., with the Alch at the factory 5.5 setting and 93 Octane, No to VERY Little (1.2degree in one or two frames) knock, and Extremely Consistent 12.9s @ between 107.5-107.99, I had Erics chip at 24/23.5timing..now I know I could have turned DOWN the timing and ran higher Boost, but I 'Think' that might have slowed me down, as the factory turbo supposedly LIKES Timing..oh and SOFT 0-1Lb. launches (2.0060ft), on my 245 nittos (No need to Impress the EMPTY bleachers)..here are two of the five passes, the other three are Almost identical:

1. 2.052 60'
5.500 330'
8.361@86.16 1/8th
10.830 1000
12.913@107.99 1/4

2. 2.110 60'
5.504 330'
8.351@86.36 1/8th
10.818 1000
12.906@107.91 1/4

O2's started out at ~850 and slowly decreased to ~770 on VERY the Last Frame(typical for all five passes) of course 255 on the mass Air..

Now I Tried Upping the Boost to 23-24Lbs but had to quit due to KNOCK Counts coming on, ~3-4 degrees of retard, so I turned it back down.
So now the question being: "I thought the Stock Turbo ran Best with High timing, so should I LOWER the timing and Increase the boost??" and
"In order to Increse the Boost at the same timing, would Upping the Octane (little race gas mixed in) help with the Meth??"

small turbos love high timing leave the boost alone and turn timing slowly to 27/24 and then see where your at i have a ta49 alky on 7 and timing 27/24 and o2's are 790's and no knock.!!! ran 11.60 at 114. with high timing your combustion is in the cylinders and not in the exhaust port causing higher egts

 

[Steve V]

Kirbans sells the Syclone pump,still a decent pump. But a 340 is better.

 

[Mr86t-type]

The 307 is a very capable pump. Just make sure electrical connections both power and grounds are 110%

Do the filter while your at it as well.

Keep us posted.

Well I change the FFilters (and blow through before and after to check them) regularly, and as far as Grounds, nowadays ALL the TR Vendors have is that POS 6" braided Steel strap that they call a tank Ground, racetronix used to sell a Fantastic Ground Kit, but they Stopped selling the Buick stuff a few years ago, so I guess I'm outta luck there...guess I'll just buy another Pump from caspers or Fullthrottle and do a ReTest....

 

[GNVYUS 1]

What is the duty cycle of the injectors and I didn't notice a post with your base fuel pressure??

The cars moving considering the 60ft and the fact that you will gain more MPH when you get the car running without knock and a tad fatter up top.

 

[Mr86t-type]

What is the duty cycle of the injectors and I didn't notice a post with your base fuel pressure??

The cars moving considering the 60ft and the fact that you will gain more MPH when you get the car running without knock and a tad fatter up top.

Good Point, Stock Injectors, TTA Regulator (45PSI)

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Wow, your missing around 10psi of fuel pressure up top, that's a lot and the hotwired 307 can easily handle the job. I had one that maxed out my 36lbers a couple years ago so let's hope it's a clogged fuel filter ( cheap ). Check for any kinked fuel lines around the tank and the intake area.

I'm sure with that much pressure missing the injectors are over 100% duty cycle but they should be able to handle the job when the problems corrected with alky, especially if you crank up the gain knob like you have.