Stock engine breaking point

[blackisfast]

Hello all!! I am getting ready to rebuild my 3.8 on a bit of a budget and I was wondering what the breaking point of the stock block, crank and rods is in hp, torque and rmps. I would like to see 450-650 hp (I know its a big range depends on $$$$) for now but maybe some more in the future. I ask because I do not want to spend the same money twice. Let me tell you some thing else...I drive cars hard, very hard. How I still have a drivers license is beyond me. I have been known to break things that shouldnt break.... I know I should just call callies, ta performance and oliver but that is not in the cards right now. I would like to think that I could be easy on the go pedal, but lets face it hp and tq is like candy-coated crack Thanks all!!!!

 

[mikestertwo]

A heavy foot and no $$$$$ is a bad combination.

 

[blackisfast]

I know it isnt the best of combos, and to add to that I dont have too much time either

 

[NJ Torque]

28 PSI + and I'm doing fine...

 

[turbofabricator]

Pull the V6/200-4R and install a turbocharged LSX. You could sell the Buick engine for 1/3 the cost of a turbo'd 6.0 truck engine. The LSX is MUCH stronger than a Buick V6, and it can make enough power to cause SERIOUS bodily injury.

If you want to stay with the V6, it can handle over 650 in stock configuration IF, and only IF, you can tune the car, and prevent all detonation. Keep the RPM's under 6,000 and do NOT detonate the poor little thing. The Buick V6 is very stout. Buy a good set of heads (either ported stockers or TA/GN1's) and a good cam, turbo, and about $1,000 in fuel system. Do NOT try to save money on fuel system. That will spell TROUBLE!!! Trying to make 650 hp, will cost you.......Well,....... here's a partial list
$1200 heads
$250+ for intake porting
$1000 cam
$900-$2400 Turbo
$1,000 intercooler
$1,000+ fuel system
$1,500+ roll bar
$100 seat belts
$400 down pipe
$400 wastegate
$200 gauges
$300+ boost controller
$1,000 torque converter
$500 exhaust
$1,000 wheels, tires, slicks
$450 axles
And a WHOLE bunch of other little things that really add up FAST! First thing to do is come up with a budget that you WILL spend, and then start buying go fast parts. If you already have some of the listed parts, just mark them off the list. The numbers above are averages, and not written in stone. I'm just trying to be realistic for you. Cheap and horsepower do not work.
Good luck!

 

[88ZNX]

You can go into the combo and 1/4 times thread and read what combo's there are and get a few idea's. These engines can take some abuse IFFFF you take care of them the correct way. I can tell you my engine is a stock block 109, stock internals, stock heads, cam. I have a TE.66 Turbo, a Big intercooler, 50# injectors, a good transmission, good exhaust and I still run the factory ECM and a Turbo Tweak Chip. my car gets about 21-22 mpg and bangs down some 11.20's some pump gas and alky with no probs.

Jason

 

[seeya v6]

Hp

My last motor build was a stock crank, rods and TRW pistons with a roller bump stick. It made 500rwhp on methanol and lived just fine,keep the knock out.

 

[Sam Colalillo]

No Knock = longer life

Proper tune up, with accurate data logging equipment, and did a mention it has a lot to do with the tune up?

It will live with no detonation and a proper tune up. Find some one that is going fast and then beg them for there set up information. Paying them for this info will save you major dollars in the long run.

 

[bison]

It will live at 650hp for a while if there is no detonation but not safe over 550hp imo

 

[blackisfast]

Pull the V6/200-4R and install a turbocharged LSX. You could sell the Buick engine for 1/3 the cost of a turbo'd 6.0 truck engine. The LSX is MUCH stronger than a Buick V6, and it can make enough power to cause SERIOUS bodily injury.

If you want to stay with the V6, it can handle over 650 in stock configuration IF, and only IF, you can tune the car, and prevent all detonation. Keep the RPM's under 6,000 and do NOT detonate the poor little thing. The Buick V6 is very stout. Buy a good set of heads (either ported stockers or TA/GN1's) and a good cam, turbo, and about $1,000 in fuel system. Do NOT try to save money on fuel system. That will spell TROUBLE!!! Trying to make 650 hp, will cost you.......Well,....... here's a partial list
$1200 heads
$250+ for intake porting
$1000 cam
$900-$2400 Turbo
$1,000 intercooler
$1,000+ fuel system
$1,500+ roll bar
$100 seat belts
$400 down pipe
$400 wastegate
$200 gauges
$300+ boost controller
$1,000 torque converter
$500 exhaust
$1,000 wheels, tires, slicks
$450 axles
And a WHOLE bunch of other little things that really add up FAST! First thing to do is come up with a budget that you WILL spend, and then start buying go fast parts. If you already have some of the listed parts, just mark them off the list. The numbers above are averages, and not written in stone. I'm just trying to be realistic for you. Cheap and horsepower do not work.
Good luck!

I do agree with you on the lsx block, but I do not like putting a chevy in an ford, pontiac in a olds etc..(even though you could say the the lsx is a GM engine ) Just not my cup of tea, not that I have a problem with anyone that does those swaps or anything. I kind of like the little v6 that could, we have been through a lot of stupidity together. The car is no longer stock, nor has it been for awhile. I do still need some things on the list and a few more things not listed I am sure.

My crank is trash which is why the engine is apart in the 1st place so I was trying to see it I should upgrade or find a stock replacement. From what engine carnage I could sift through somehow the key on the crank that holds the lower timing sprocket in place went on vacation leaving my valves to shake hands with the tops of the pistons making a very stranded me. My #2 rod is very blue on the small end not sure if it in junk or not (angry little wrist pin) 3 of the 6 nice large aftermarket intake valves lean to the side after that little engagement, but the seats look saveable. So where I am going with this little thread is should I leave my gn off the road for another 6-16 months while I save for nice speed parts or do I trw piston, peen the rods with a resize and scour the for sale posts for a crank. Not much point in the cheap way if I am going to be back to square 1 in 8 months or less. My old engine would pull hard to about 6400 rpm or so I was running 15psi on pump gas and with crapy street tires at out track (3300 ft) I clicked off 2.0 60ft and 13.00 at 112mph. Not too bad for a fat kid with a worn out turbo car (15 psi of oil if I was lucky.) Well guys Thanks again for the info. What do you think go for broke or smack it back together go with the low hp figure and save my duckets for the monster or what???????? FYI 11s and im happy 10s and im very happy.

 

[blackisfast]

No longer need rod info, just picked up a set of olivers

 

[Pronto]

You ran a stock cam to 6400 rpm?
Maybe you should list your current mods then go from there. Budget some money for tires. No sense making that kind of hp and not getting to the ground.

 

[bison]

You ran a stock cam to 6400 rpm?
Maybe you should list your current mods then go from there. Budget some money for tires. No sense making that kind of hp and not getting to the ground.

Maybe he meant 5400. lol. Even thats a stretch for his indicated mph.

 

[Pronto]

Or was reading the LED rpm gauge.:wink:

 

[Sam Colalillo]

No longer need rod info, just picked up a set of olivers

Wide journal or standard journal?

 

[blackisfast]

You ran a stock cam to 6400 rpm?
Maybe you should list your current mods then go from there. Budget some money for tires. No sense making that kind of hp and not getting to the ground.

Ok here is a list. I have done the trans and some minor tweaking only!!!
all else was there when I picked up the car.

Ported heads with larger intake valves (with tape masure looks about 1 3/4 inches) exhaust looks about 1 1/2 inches. I had the heads flowed (looking for the sheet) but I do remember thinking "thank god this thing has positive manifold pressure otherwise I could get out and run faster." Ports dont look that bad either.
cam of unknown specs, has grind numbers on the sprocket end but have no clue what specs are.
turbo looked stock, worn everything but stock
mechanical adjustable wastegate
3in downpipe
coated crossover tube
looks like rewelded stock manifolds
big 10mm plug wires
test pipe/no cat
flowmaster mufflers
ported upper intake, found cracks from too much anger during reinstall
green stripe injectors (42 1/2 I think)
Billet adjustable regualtor, set to 44lbs i think
duttweiler intercooler necks
what look like larger intake ducting to innercooler and engine
dont remember but I think someone touched up the lower intake with a die grinder.
some adjustable thumbwheel chip
a plug in volt booster
plug in fuel pump upgrade
heated o2 sensor
plug in tps booster (dont like it seemed to run better without)
some kind of come-along engine to frame tie down thing
eibach springs looks lower by 1-2 inches not sure
bilsteins on all 4 corners
centerline big-n-littles with old rubber (will replace soon)
extra set of centerlines with mt et drags (newish never really had a chance to run them)
driveshaft loop
turbo 400 with 485 stright cut gears, kevlar bands and clutches, early 400 sprag (the one with the addl rollers bearings) hughes deep alum trans pan. The 485 gears are really cool, they sound like a roots supercharger, add that to the sounds of the turbo and the car sounds darn neat goin down the road or at wot.
Has a 10in 3k stall converter also from hughes
And yes the car has gauges, boost, oil pressure, coolant temp, tach, knock alert, and rich/lean.
line lock
That is all that comes to mind.

I found some poorly installed parts and some poorly adjusted parts after I started to play with the car. My run down the track I ran a shameful 14.2 (mph unknown.) Tried different methods got down to 14.0...... I then did some homework and a friend and I adjusted the tps (way off) cranked the boost from 13 to 15/16 psi, adjusted the floor mat and ran low 13s all night long. I did find a time slip that said 13.2 at 108 with a 2.1 60ft so I may be off on my mph, still havent found the 13.0's, must be hiding from me. I am also going off of 4 year old memory Bison, wouldn't suprise me if I find out I am wrong. I do know the 13.0 and the 2.0 numbers are fact however. I thought I remembered the car pulling to past 6k on the tach with the car falling on its face around 6400 or so. I am pretty sure I am wrong as I just looked up the chip info and the rpm limit is 6k. I feel kind of dumb guys sorry. I do know that with street tires I would leave the light at about 2500 and the tires wouldnt light up until 3500-4k. I would just keep my foot in it as I would loose boost if I tried to feather it and go slower. That is what I found, not sure if i was driving poorly or not but what the heck, I was having fun.

The car was kind of a pos, rode hard and put away oily. It only has 92k but I found after the CLEAR COAT started peeling that the car had not 1, not 2, not3 but 4 coats of paint and some skechy body work. Oh well it is in the process of getting reworked/repainted. Luckly the coats were thin and are coming off easy. Had I known that the engine/trans/turbo and wiring were in such poor condition I may have picked a different car, but live and learn. I have dump trucks of money in this thing and have a few more trucks to go before all is said and done.

I plan on suspension fun and a beefier diff.

Sam Colalillo, these are the rods I picked up.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/parts-sale/269066-oliver-billet-6-off-center-narrow-rods-new.html

Thanks again guys! Hope I didnt put you all to sleep.

 

[Grumpy]

the "Budget" word shouldn't be used in a build up ... as the sayin goes "reliable, cheap, or fast... Pick two!"

 

[blackisfast]

the "Budget" word shouldn't be used in a build up ... as the sayin goes "reliable, cheap, or fast... Pick two!"

Budget is a poor choice of words, I agree. Big CEO's cant follow them so I am guessing I wont be able to follow one either espically since I like the reliable and fast choices the best

Oh and its turbo 475 gears not a 485, oops typo.

 

["Turbo-T"]

I do agree with you on the lsx block, but I do not like putting a chevy in an ford, pontiac in a olds etc..(even though you could say the the lsx is a GM engine ) Just not my cup of tea, not that I have a problem with anyone that does those swaps or anything.

If it makes you feel any better, the LSX engine is not a Chevy engine or a Pontiac engine or a Buick engine or even an Olds engine....it's a "corporate GM" engine. So IMO put it in any GM car you want. It'll fit in there. Plus it's not 20 + year old technology. :smile:

 

[Sam Colalillo]

FYI 11s and im happy 10s and im very happy.

Should the above statement be true then a set of billet center caps, forged pistons, stock crank in excellent condition with those bad azz rods will get you there. You can do it with a hydraulic flat tappet cam, but I would build it with a roller cam.

Make very sure your crank is good before moving forward, for me finding a good stock crank has proven to be very difficult.

I have several friends that drive their cars very frequently with high 10 second low eleven second tune ups in them. These guys are using ARP rod bolts on stock rods, stock crank, center billet mains, and a roller cam. One of them has pushed his combo to a 10.2 pass then drove his car home.

The key is no detonation, proper tune up. Take baby steps as you go faster and monitor knock.

Good luck with your build.