stage 1 vs stage 2

[bison]

For a street [or race] application we can do a stock pan or deep pan as we have oil pickups tubes/screens for each.

A short block with all forged internals will cost ~$10K. Complete engine with customer's pan, front cover and intake $15-16K.

The blocks now come with 3.90" bore, as almost everyone wants as much displacement as they can reasonably get.

Thats not unreasonable but i wouldnt pay $8k for a stock short block with girdle and forged internals. A girdled stock shortblock with customer supplied block, pan, and front cover should be about $5-6k. Add $400 if their cover is a POS.

 

[turbodave231]

I'd like to correct a misconception, The Stage 1 block is not based off the production block. In fact, the same Heavy Duty raw casting was used to produce both Stage 1 and Stage 2 blocks (offcenter versions 0012 and 0016).

I've owned several 0016 S1 and S2 offcenter blocks, and I've spent some time studying the different versions of the block: Here are a few of my observations:

The Stage 1 version of the block was machined with the oil passages in the production locations, The oil main galleys intersect the lifter bores just like the production block. The oil pump pickup was located at the #2 main bulkhead just like production (but had an unmachined pad at the #1 main bulkhead). S1's had only 8 head bolt holes machined (but had provisions for all 14), and had 2 bolt cast iron main caps in all 4 positions.

Why did Buick even bother producing a Stage 1 block? Why not build all Stage 2 blocks? My guess is that the "Stage" casting could easily be machined in Plant 36 (Buick's Engine Plant) on production tooling to make the Stage 1 version. I'm thinking Stage 2 versions needed extra machining and could not run down the production line in Plant 36. I regularly saw pallets of Stage 2 blocks in the prototype machining area in the Engineering building. I beleive that is where all Stage 2 blocks were machined. I don't recall seeing any Stage 1's in that area.

The Stage 2 version of the block was machined with the oil galleys set outside the lifter bores, all 14 head bolt holes, and the stock oil pickup passage was machined away for the 4 bolt billet steel center caps. The oil pump pickup pad at the #1 main position was machined for wet sump operation. Oil feed passages were drilled and tapped in the towers at the front and rear of the block for dry sump oiling systems.

The later S2 0016 blocks had many other changes.......Buick was constantly fine tuning the Stage 2 blocks, batch by batch. I've confirmed this during conversations with George Montgomery (Indy Lights Engine builder) and Denny Manner (Buick Engine- Chief Engineer)

I wish I'd have bought a pallet of these blocks back when I had the chance!!!!! But who knew??

Dave

 

[jjkv]

Are there any good articles on these two engines? I did a search and didn't see much other than stuff for the old 1970 Buick GS engines.

TA Buick V-6 Aluminum Cylinder Block - Tech & Specifications - Hot Rod

john

 

[jjkv]

TA Buick V-6 Aluminum Cylinder Block - Tech & Specifications - Hot Rod

john

 

["Turbo-T"]

TA Buick V-6 Aluminum Cylinder Block - Tech & Specifications - Hot Rod

john

Thaks John.

What Bison says is true for the most part. But not all production blocks are made the same. Some were simply much thicker and stronger then others, by a lot! That's why a sonic test should be done before building a 109 to check the thickness.

But if ur starting from nothing a S1 or S2 or TA is definately a better way to go. If I was starting from zero I would go with a TA block. Save the 50 lbs... Just ask the guy runnen the fastest TSO car on the planet.

Thanks. I always thought the production blocks were pretty strong. I think i read somewhere the production blocks didn't have enough bolts to hold the heads down under detonation which is partially why blown HG's are common.

 

[theMonch]

Old Thread But...

I know she's an old thread, but this should have been linked in here somewhere.

Block Photo Guide

 

[357456]

I'd like to correct a misconception, The Stage 1 block is not based off the production block. In fact, the same Heavy Duty raw casting was used to produce both Stage 1 and Stage 2 blocks (offcenter versions 0012 and 0016).

I've owned several 0016 S1 and S2 offcenter blocks, and I've spent some time studying the different versions of the block: Here are a few of my observations:

The Stage 1 version of the block was machined with the oil passages in the production locations, The oil main galleys intersect the lifter bores just like the production block. The oil pump pickup was located at the #2 main bulkhead just like production (but had an unmachined pad at the #1 main bulkhead). S1's had only 8 head bolt holes machined (but had provisions for all 14), and had 2 bolt cast iron main caps in all 4 positions.

Why did Buick even bother producing a Stage 1 block? Why not build all Stage 2 blocks? My guess is that the "Stage" casting could easily be machined in Plant 36 (Buick's Engine Plant) on production tooling to make the Stage 1 version. I'm thinking Stage 2 versions needed extra machining and could not run down the production line in Plant 36. I regularly saw pallets of Stage 2 blocks in the prototype machining area in the Engineering building. I beleive that is where all Stage 2 blocks were machined. I don't recall seeing any Stage 1's in that area.

The Stage 2 version of the block was machined with the oil galleys set outside the lifter bores, all 14 head bolt holes, and the stock oil pickup passage was machined away for the 4 bolt billet steel center caps. The oil pump pickup pad at the #1 main position was machined for wet sump operation. Oil feed passages were drilled and tapped in the towers at the front and rear of the block for wet sump oiling systems.

The later S2 0016 blocks had many other changes.......Buick was constantly fine tuning the Stage 2 blocks, batch by batch. I've confirmed this during conversations with George Montgomery (Indy Lights Engine builder) and Denny Manner (Buick Engine- Chief Engineer)

I wish I'd have bought a pallet of these blocks back when I had the chance!!!!! But who knew??

Dave

Thanks I needed this info. today!

 

[TURBOTERRORV6]

I'd like to correct a misconception, The Stage 1 block is not based off the production block. In fact, the same Heavy Duty raw casting was used to produce both Stage 1 and Stage 2 blocks (offcenter versions 0012 and 0016).

I've owned several 0016 S1 and S2 offcenter blocks, and I've spent some time studying the different versions of the block: Here are a few of my observations:

The Stage 1 version of the block was machined with the oil passages in the production locations, The oil main galleys intersect the lifter bores just like the production block. The oil pump pickup was located at the #2 main bulkhead just like production (but had an unmachined pad at the #1 main bulkhead). S1's had only 8 head bolt holes machined (but had provisions for all 14), and had 2 bolt cast iron main caps in all 4 positions.

Why did Buick even bother producing a Stage 1 block? Why not build all Stage 2 blocks? My guess is that the "Stage" casting could easily be machined in Plant 36 (Buick's Engine Plant) on production tooling to make the Stage 1 version. I'm thinking Stage 2 versions needed extra machining and could not run down the production line in Plant 36. I regularly saw pallets of Stage 2 blocks in the prototype machining area in the Engineering building. I beleive that is where all Stage 2 blocks were machined. I don't recall seeing any Stage 1's in that area.

The Stage 2 version of the block was machined with the oil galleys set outside the lifter bores, all 14 head bolt holes, and the stock oil pickup passage was machined away for the 4 bolt billet steel center caps. The oil pump pickup pad at the #1 main position was machined for wet sump operation. Oil feed passages were drilled and tapped in the towers at the front and rear of the block for wet sump oiling systems.

The later S2 0016 blocks had many other changes.......Buick was constantly fine tuning the Stage 2 blocks, batch by batch. I've confirmed this during conversations with George Montgomery (Indy Lights Engine builder) and Denny Manner (Buick Engine- Chief Engineer)

I wish I'd have bought a pallet of these blocks back when I had the chance!!!!! But who knew??

Dave

7 years later and this information is much needed today, thanks

 

[Nick Micale]

Since this thread was brought back from the past, I would like to add some history and info about the TA alum block.

In 1999, I had just purchased a couple Stage II blocks from my local GM parts house and found out that only 25 castings were left at Buick, and no more would be cast.

All the stage blocks were then quickly sold out and still there was a demand, so I asked Mike from TA, whom I had known then for years, would he be interested in making a V-6 block as he had promoted building a V-8 "stage" block for a few years, but there was not enough interest in the big-block Buick community to justify the investment required.

He was open to investigate the V-6 project, and we quickly found aluminum was the way to go, not iron.

The link above pointed out many of the improvements of the TA block over the Buick stage block like the oiling system, but the overall design has proven to be much better than envisioned.

The stage blocks were very reliable and performed well until the HP levels were more doubled the HP levels from the NASCAR and Indy Light applications with the turbo drag cars.

Applications just over 1000 HP was fine with the iron blocks, but approaching 1300-1500, many iron block gave up structurally.

TA alum block builds have been very close to 2000 HP, and proven to be reliable.

There were other design improvements in the TA block, but my favorite one is the head bolt/studs go into blind holes that are not open to any water ports!

I just want to add a personal comment, TA invested over $100,000 to bring these blocks to the market place as well as other supporting parts like billet cranks, rods, bearings and many turbo performance items to help keep the Buick turbo community supplied with needed and quality parts for our cars!

 

[VtheGNMan]

Out of curiosity, how does a 4.1 fit in the mix? Block strength, cost, potential HP etc.

 

[Nick Micale]

Out of curiosity, how does a 4.1 fit in the mix? Block strength, cost, potential HP etc.

If you are referring to a production Buick 4.1 V-6 block used from 1981-1984 in various GM vehicles, they are essentially the same as the various versions of the 3.8 blocks.

Since a stage block will weigh about 50#'s more than any production V-6 Buick block, it must be way stronger, especially in critical areas.

The major lack of strength of a production block vs. a stage block is material web thickness between the main bore and the cam tunnel. The stage block is much thicker in that area as a stock block will give up there anywhere from 500 HP and up. The forged cranks have been a great factor in getting more power and longevity out of a production block since they flex MUCH less than the stock forged crank.

A stock block in a GN running low 9's will be fortunate to live for more than 20 passes no matter what is done to it?

The deck on a stage block has provision for 14 head bolts vs. 8 in the production version, so logic will then tell you the deck must have more material and strength in that area as well?

A big advantage of the alum block over a stage block is that most alum carnage can be repaired, not impossible with iron blocks, but the cost is very high, and reliability and structural rigidity is low.

 

[VtheGNMan]

Makes sense now. Thanks for the explanation Nick!

 

[EVIL]

What does a TA aluminum block cost compared to a stage 2 block?

There is some very good info on this thread

D