stage 1 vs stage 2
- Thread starter Machran
- Start date
Stage 1 is based off the off center production blocks but thats where it stops. It has the bosses for the extra bolts. The main webbing and alloy is far superior to the production crap. Unfortunately extra fasteners on the caps are not practical since the oil suction passage is there.
Still learning...
Are the production blocks that bad?
Were both stage 1 and 2 over-the-counter blocks?
When would it be logical to go to a stage 1 or 2?
Production blocks are junk and most have a bunch of core shift. They were made to withstand about 400 hp. Even with a bunch of expensive parts like steel rotating assembly and girdle with a bunch of stuff done on hand selected blocks to keep the caps from walking they still fail. The later gen 3800's are examples of an over engineered block. Those have been to 1000hp with the stock bottom end. Pistons included. The stage 1 and 2 were over the counter. They were very cheap when they were available. It would be a smart move to get a better block over 600hp unless you are required to run a production block in a heads up class. Its kind of like putting a $4000 set of rims on a $500 car. You still are driving a $500 car.
Folks that spend a ton of $ go really fast on the stock block because they dont have any choice but to run a stock block in their heads up class. Believe me if they could run a stage 2 or TA block they would be. The breaking point seems to be when the car runs repeatedly under 5.80 in the eighth at full weight. Some have reportedly made more than a few passes at this power level on the same block. Thats a $12-15k TSM engine though. You could build around a stage 2 for the same price and make 100's of 8 sec. passes before refreshing.
benoitthegr8
Sociopathic TR Ownership
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2004
Off the subject but I have an SG1 block laying around the garage and everyone thinks the thing is a stage block... I guess the fact that it has billet mains on it now could be confusing, I wish it was a Stage 1....
I am about 2 years away from building my motor so I figure I have a good amount of time to get this right. Iam looking to build a mid 10- car that is 99% street driven. I was planning on a stroked 109 But not set in stone yet. What's the difference in building a stroked 109 with forged everything and alum heads Vs a mid 10 stAge motor?
If you've got the time to decide get the TA block and you shouldn't have any problems. Overall the TA block is the best option and will cost about the same as a Stage II, plus it's aluminum so it's lighter. If you're building it for a specific class then you need to figure out what rules you have to go by and build from there.
Sell it to them and let them think its a stage block if their that uneducated
I dont know anyone who builds a stage 2 or TA and shoots for mid 10's. Aluminum heads are a waste at that level too. The cost to build the stage or TA will be about $5-6k more just to use the block.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
Sorry Bison, we have built a few mid-10 TA alum blocks.
With the right combo, 10.0 at 17 psi boost, and a hydraulic roller cam is killer on the street, and last years with no major issue, like a blown head gasket.
There is only a couple hundred $$$ difference in building an alum block vs. a 109. Now is you add caps, girdle, etc. to a 109 block, then the difference to go with the alum block amounts to less than $2K.
Sorry Bison, we have built a few mid-10 TA alum blocks.
With the right combo, 10.0 at 17 psi boost, and a hydraulic roller cam is killer on the street, and last years with no major issue, like a blown head gasket.
There is only a couple hundred $$$ difference in building an alum block vs. a 109. Now is you add caps, girdle, etc. to a 109 block, then the difference to go with the alum block amounts to less than $2K.
I didnt say it couldnt be done i said it wasnt worhtwhile. External oil suction and other unconsidered expenses. So how much for a TA off center 3.8 bore ready to go with everything except heads and intake? Forged crank and rods. PM me if you dont want to post it here
GNBRETT
Pelennor Fields
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2004
What Bison says is true for the most part. But not all production blocks are made the same. Some were simply much thicker and stronger then others, by a lot! That's why a sonic test should be done before building a 109 to check the thickness.
But if ur starting from nothing a S1 or S2 or TA is definately a better way to go. If I was starting from zero I would go with a TA block. Save the 50 lbs...
Just ask the guy runnen the fastest TSO car on the planet.- Joined
- May 26, 2001
For a street [or race] application we can do a stock pan or deep pan as we have oil pickups tubes/screens for each.
A short block with all forged internals will cost ~$10K. Complete engine with customer's pan, front cover and intake $15-16K.
The blocks now come with 3.90" bore, as almost everyone wants as much displacement as they can reasonably get.
