So here's an update on how my car runs at the track

["Turbo-T"]

This is a follow up to this thread....http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/352003-crappy-night-track.html

As some of you pointed out, the stock D5 converter was an issue. This past Friday, Bob's Rare 6 and I installed my PTC. Dusty sent this 10 inch lock up to me with a 2800 stall.

Today the weather was windy but in the high 50's/low 60's. The track I was at (Kansas City Int'l) is possibly on the verge of closing. So as a possible one last hurrah, I came.

I set the tire pressure in the M/T ET street radials to 20 psi, then set the timing on the TT 5.7 alky chip to 25/23. (134 on the parameter) The WOT fuel was dialed back to 127 and the WOT 1st was dialed back to 122. I was foot braking on launch, anywhere from 5 to 10 psi of boost.

Long story short, the 60 fts have dropped from 2.00 into the 1.8's. The E.T.'s were mostly 12.8's and a few 12.9's. However the best trap speed I could muster was 105 mph. This was on 23-24 psi.

Here's the powerlogger files on two of the runs if someone would please be kind enough to see if they can see anything I don't see? I did notice some knock after 3rd gear....but how does the AFR look? Is there anything else I'm missing?

Also of these two log files, the 12.88 at 104 was on a 1.88 60 ft, with an 8.24 at 85.46 1/8. The 12.91 at 103 was on a 1.87 60 ft, 8.25 at 85.34 in the 1/8. Best time I got all day was 12.82 at 105 mph with a 1.83 60 ft, 8.18 at 85.56 1/8.

Bob did point out there's a puff of blue smoke on start up so we're wondering if the turbo seals might be worn and perhaps the turbo is the cause? I also have a lifter tap, hopefully there's not a cam lobe going, but IIRC the tap goes away after a bit. Bob did also bring up the condition of the valve springs....I didn't build the engine but was informed it was a fresh rebuild when I got it. The engine does pull like a mule and then sort of levels out at the top end of the track.

I'm a bit frustrated and not happy yet a little happier than I was before. I guess there's something needing addressing, just trying to figure out where.

 

["Turbo-T"]

Here's the time slips....my best pass followed by the 2 that correspond with the powerlogger files I have downloaded.

Please someone take a look and let me know what you think. Thanks.

 

[turb0buick57]

dont see it in your signature, do you have a wideband?

 

[salvageV6]

Pig rich.

Probably cost you 3-4 mph.

With that timing and boost you should be over 110mph easy.

It seemed to shift near most stockers, I'd make sure that cam. was working right on all 6 cyl.

 

["Turbo-T"]

turb0buick57, yes I do have a PLX wideband.

salvageV6, should I pull fuel on all gears or 1st only?

 

[salvageV6]

It seemed fat everywhere to me.

I'm not sure if you should be pulling fuel or alky. if it's an alky. chip I'd leave the fuel alone and check your alky. flow and pressures to see what's up there, I don't subscribe to flooding the car with alky. just use it for KR suppression.

Not sure what octane you were using etc.???

I'd consider some time on a dyno. or log some street runs, I believe 11.0 would net you more power, if it's stock heads I'd shoot for even higher 11.3 or so.

I'm closer to 11.8 same on the dyno. as the track, but as they say all cars like different tunes.

I don't recommend tuning a lot by posts, emails, and cell phones either, those are just my observations and experiences.

But I'd also check the cam. operation too.

I doubt it's the turbo, even when the seals leak and they smoke a bit, they usually still spin okay and make good power.

If you've logged some street runs WOT are the A/F's on the wideband below 11.0 a lot?

 

["Turbo-T"]

Salvage, in the past the AFR was even richer. There have been times where it was as rich as 10.02.

It is an alky chip I am running. Turbo Tweak to be exact.

I was running 93 octane. The chip is burned for 92, but I run 93 anytime I can.

I have wondered if I'd be better off going to a dyno as opposed to beating on it at the track, and seeing when and where it makes power in relation to the parts used, and then determining if there's an issue with my combo, or if it's mismatched combo or whatever.

 

[scojack_2001]

I was always told to lean it out until it just starts to detonate, then add a bit of fuel back into it. Also was always told to pull 5% at a time, see what happens, and go from there.

I usually go for a 10.8-11.0 A/F ratio on my PLX. It's worked for me so far. I was told any leaner than that isn't great for the motor, but I've taken it to 11.2 on my fastest passes.

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

Crunching the numbers tells me your convertor slippage is 11.9%. Your fueling is rich...and you're showing KR. I'd reset Erics chip to the default settings and make a run and log it. If you're not seeing any KR...then I'd start pulling WOT fuel.

 

[QUIP'6']

with your setup you should be low 11's

 

[salvageV6]

I'd reset the chip as well to the defaults, Erics stuff is usually good WOT out of the box.

What boost is it set to run at? Very near there is where you want to be at the track.

At your power level I'd make sure I locked the converter at around 85 mph in 3rd to pick up some mph and ET.

I 60ft. as bad as you 1.8's, so there's no complaints there but my tired old stockers still made 113/114 mph at 24/25 psi. on 21* timing.

Good enough for high 11's.

I'd double check that cam. and did you weigh the car at the track?

 

["Turbo-T"]

You say my slippage is 11.9%...is that good or bad?

There's no tracks near my house and the closest one might be closing...we have lots of back country roads here, you think I could use one to test and tune with?

The KR that you saw, wouldn't you say it's most likely false? I saw it too but also noticed the AFR's were rich. Unless you can get knock from too much fuel.

I will try resetting the chip.

Are you asking what boost the chip is set to run at? it says 20-25 psi on the sticker.

I didn't weight the car at the track. I did weigh it a long time ago and it was 3560 w/o me in it plus the spare, and I don't remember how much fuel it had.

What's the "old stockers" you speak of?

 

[SCOOBY DOO]

You say my slippage is 11.9%...is that good or bad?

There's no tracks near my house and the closest one might be closing...we have lots of back country roads here, you think I could use one to test and tune with?

The KR that you saw, wouldn't you say it's most likely false? I saw it too but also noticed the AFR's were rich. Unless you can get knock from too much fuel.

I will try resetting the chip.

Are you asking what boost the chip is set to run at? it says 20-25 psi on the sticker.

I didn't weight the car at the track. I did weigh it a long time ago and it was 3560 w/o me in it plus the spare, and I don't remember how much fuel it had.

What's the "old stockers" you speak of?

You've dialed in 2.1 degrees more timing...go back to Erics defaults...for everything...including fuel. The KR you're seeing in 3rd gear is likely timing related. When you ordered the chip from Eric...what was the max boost you told him...and what have you got it set at? I trust your fuel pressure is rising pound for pound with boost...and you have the FP set per Erics instructions.

 

["Turbo-T"]

I told Eric to burn it for 25 PSI. It's at 24 PSI now.

Yes the fuel pressure rises pound for pound on boost, and it is set per instructions.

 

[TurboDave]

I can certainly understand your frustration. Running that much timing and boost should put you into the 11's. IF you were running good race gas. You, however, are not. You're trying to run extremely high boost and timing levels on 93 and alky. IMHO, not a good combination. The boost graph shows your boost hitting upwards of 27# at points in the run, Lot's of time at 26#, and your timing is awfly high.

When I was running my car (in 11.60's@117), I was generally only running 25/23 timing, and 27# of boost. BUT!!!!! that was with straight 114 octane race gas. Even if I were an alky guy, I wouldn't try running boost and timing that high.

Add to that you'r running PIG RICH even for running alky, isn't helping. Try keeping your AFR in the 10.8 range. My car seems to like 11.4 best, but that's without alky.

As I said, I'm not an alky user, so can't be of much help with your tune beyond the basics. I do know of one change you could make that would help immensely!! but I'd get the wrath of the IC "experts" on here for mentioning. Oh, what the hell... I'm to old to worry about the opinions of others. A good front mount IC would be a huge improvement!! I would be willing to bet, if you moved your air temp sensor to the up pipe (before the alky), you'd be amazed at how hot the air is entering your intake!! Alky can only do so much, that in conjunction with a front mount would pay performance divedends!

I hate using my own car as an example but..... I don't race seriously anylonger, but at the local 1/8 mile, my last runs were 8.0@89, and this was on straight 93 octane, 21/18 timing, and 20# of boost on a tired motor (compare that to the 1/8 mile times on your slips with your boost and timing. How can I run that much timing and boost on straight 93? A VERY good front mount.
Even on the hottest of days, my air temps entering the throttle body, have never gone over 99 degrees F. In any weather, my MAT's never get more that 15deg. above ambient on a hard pull.

You also need to determine whether or not that knock retard is real or not. That's a lot of retard for the amount of boost you're running!!!!
Double check the torque on your knock sensor!!!! Should be 14 ft/lb.

 

[Mr.Spool]

time for a compression test,and blue smoke is usually valve seals,when its the turbo it will smoke heavy and you could pull it off and run it without one to see.i think you should dial back the boost and timing before you really hurt something.24 psi on a 60mm with 25 degrees of timing and the car went 105 mph,something besides the tune is off.if you have a duel nozzle alkycontrol setup 10.5 afr is a good target,on a single that number changes and will cost you power but you are way off at 105mph.the car is falling on its face from the 1/8 to the 1/4 at 20 mph.

 

[Razor]

Looks like the car is nosing down. Exhaust have a dump? Was it opened?

Me.. if I had a customers car running 85 in the 1/8 and 24-26 PSI boost.. i'd drop boost down to 18-20 and see how it runs. Dont fret too much about air fuel, the car will make plenty of power even at 10.0:1. Once the baseline at 18-20 PSI is done, adding boost 1 psi at a time and watching the MPH go up. If the MPH doesnt go up.. back it down and figure out why?

Years ago I had an issue making MPH.. after trips to the track and seeing the MPH just not picking up... my problem ended up being the air filter was clogged. I pulled the air filter and the car picked up 5 MPH.

The last thing you want to do when its not making power is add boost and timing as this will get you a blown headgasket. When its breathing well... keep upping the power to wake it up. This also relates to weak valve springs, wiped out cam, leaks through the IC(cracks) etc. Typically air leaks will show up in BL numbers.

Hope this helps.

 

[salvageV6]

Stockers are stock Buick built motors with stock cams.

I'd double check that cam. install and the lobes.

The defaults in the chip should get you 114 mph and a high 11 on pump and alky.

There's a lot to check that's for sure.

 

["Turbo-T"]

I can certainly understand your frustration. Running that much timing and boost should put you into the 11's. IF you were running good race gas. You, however, are not. You're trying to run extremely high boost and timing levels on 93 and alky. IMHO, not a good combination. The boost graph shows your boost hitting upwards of 27# at points in the run, Lot's of time at 26#, and your timing is awfly high.

When I was running my car (in 11.60's@117), I was generally only running 25/23 timing, and 27# of boost. BUT!!!!! that was with straight 114 octane race gas. Even if I were an alky guy, I wouldn't try running boost and timing that high.

Add to that you'r running PIG RICH even for running alky, isn't helping. Try keeping your AFR in the 10.8 range. My car seems to like 11.4 best, but that's without alky.

As I said, I'm not an alky user, so can't be of much help with your tune beyond the basics. I do know of one change you could make that would help immensely!! but I'd get the wrath of the IC "experts" on here for mentioning. Oh, what the hell... I'm to old to worry about the opinions of others. A good front mount IC would be a huge improvement!! I would be willing to bet, if you moved your air temp sensor to the up pipe (before the alky), you'd be amazed at how hot the air is entering your intake!! Alky can only do so much, that in conjunction with a front mount would pay performance divedends!

I hate using my own car as an example but..... I don't race seriously anylonger, but at the local 1/8 mile, my last runs were 8.0@89, and this was on straight 93 octane, 21/18 timing, and 20# of boost on a tired motor (compare that to the 1/8 mile times on your slips with your boost and timing. How can I run that much timing and boost on straight 93? A VERY good front mount.
Even on the hottest of days, my air temps entering the throttle body, have never gone over 99 degrees F. In any weather, my MAT's never get more that 15deg. above ambient on a hard pull.

You also need to determine whether or not that knock retard is real or not. That's a lot of retard for the amount of boost you're running!!!!
Double check the torque on your knock sensor!!!! Should be 14 ft/lb.

Dave, so would you recommend when I go to the track, to run straight race fuel and not 93 and alky?

You also say that the amount of boost I am running is too high for 93 and alky? What would you say would be a "safe" boost to run with 93 and alky? My understanding was you could run up to 25 psi as long as there's no knock, but I am all ears at this point.

You also mentioned installing the IAT sensor in the up pipe...? Is that ok to do? Mine's just sitting under the hood near the K&N....would it be better to install the IAT sensor in the up pipe?

I know what you mean about the FMIC vs SLIC debate that I've read here over and over...I've also read here about people who throw $$$ worth of go-fast goodies on their car yet they can't manage to go past high 12's/13's in the 1/4...so you know I try and go the K.I.S.S. route....but another thing....my car still has a/c, albeit converted to R-134a....if I were to run a FMIC, wouldn't that cause the a/c to not be as efficient?

Also what FMIC allowed you to run 20 psi on straight 93, and how long are we talking when you last ran 8's in the 1/8 on 93 octane and a FMIC?

time for a compression test,and blue smoke is usually valve seals,when its the turbo it will smoke heavy and you could pull it off and run it without one to see.i think you should dial back the boost and timing before you really hurt something.24 psi on a 60mm with 25 degrees of timing and the car went 105 mph,something besides the tune is off.if you have a duel nozzle alkycontrol setup 10.5 afr is a good target,on a single that number changes and will cost you power but you are way off at 105mph.the car is falling on its face from the 1/8 to the 1/4 at 20 mph.

How much compression should I expect to see per cylinder? I only have a single nozzle alky control as of right now.

Looks like the car is nosing down. Exhaust have a dump? Was it opened?

Me.. if I had a customers car running 85 in the 1/8 and 24-26 PSI boost.. i'd drop boost down to 18-20 and see how it runs. Dont fret too much about air fuel, the car will make plenty of power even at 10.0:1. Once the baseline at 18-20 PSI is done, adding boost 1 psi at a time and watching the MPH go up. If the MPH doesnt go up.. back it down and figure out why?

Years ago I had an issue making MPH.. after trips to the track and seeing the MPH just not picking up... my problem ended up being the air filter was clogged. I pulled the air filter and the car picked up 5 MPH.

The last thing you want to do when its not making power is add boost and timing as this will get you a blown headgasket. When its breathing well... keep upping the power to wake it up. This also relates to weak valve springs, wiped out cam, leaks through the IC(cracks) etc. Typically air leaks will show up in BL numbers.

Hope this helps.

I have a dump but I don't use it. It was closed. I'll try backing down boost, won't be able to test at track for a while though to see if it's doing any good. I do have a K&N filter I recently cleaned/re oiled. I have heard there's some what of a controvery considering since it's an oiled filter, that it traps dirt faster than a paper filter, and also some say the oil can leak past the filter into the MAF and foul it up.

Stockers are stock Buick built motors with stock cams.

I'd double check that cam. install and the lobes.

The defaults in the chip should get you 114 mph and a high 11 on pump and alky.

There's a lot to check that's for sure.

Thanks. I will point out that whoever put in the cam, on the cam card they did put that they advanced it 4 degrees. Not sure why, but I would guess if it were advanced 4, it would run out of breath on the top end before crossing the line...?

 

[TurboDave]

Dave, so would you recommend when I go to the track, to run straight race fuel and not 93 and alky?

You also say that the amount of boost I am running is too high for 93 and alky? What would you say would be a "safe" boost to run with 93 and alky? My understanding was you could run up to 25 psi as long as there's no knock, but I am all ears at this point.

You also mentioned installing the IAT sensor in the up pipe...? Is that ok to do? Mine's just sitting under the hood near the K&N....would it be better to install the IAT sensor in the up pipe?

I know what you mean about the FMIC vs SLIC debate that I've read here over and over...I've also read here about people who throw $$$ worth of go-fast goodies on their car yet they can't manage to go past high 12's/13's in the 1/4...so you know I try and go the K.I.S.S. route....but another thing....my car still has a/c, albeit converted to R-134a....if I were to run a FMIC, wouldn't that cause the a/c to not be as efficient?

Also what FMIC allowed you to run 20 psi on straight 93, and how long are we talking when you last ran 8's in the 1/8 on 93 octane and a FMIC?

I would only recommend changing from your present 93/alky setup to race fuel only, if and only if that's what you want to make permanent, because it would mean a new tuning round.

The reason I say your boost was too high for alky is because I saw a lot of places on your trace where the boost exceeded 27#. You keep saying your were running 25 (which is on the upper edge IMHO), so try to get better control of your boost.

The only reason I recommended running the IAT in the up pipe is to be able to log true inlet temps on your powerlogger (too demonstrate just how HOT the air is entering the engine).

I don't think running a FMIC would be detrimental to the efficiency of your A/C, althought it may make it a bit more of a cooling issue. I run dual fans, so it's not much of an issue.

I happen to be running a Charge Air V2 FMIC (which aren't available anylonger), but there are a couple of good copies out there! As I stated, it's pretty efficient, and I've never seen inlet temps exceed 99 deg.

And to anwer your question about when I last run the 8.0 on straight 93, was this summer. Oh, btw, that was with 1.8 60's on real street tires (Firestone Firehawks)
I have plenty of logs that show my boost actually exceeding 21.9 psi in 1st gear, and then settling back to 20. I have a little overshoot, that I now have cleared. I'm pretty close to being perfect on my tune, because I will see the knock sensor get tickled if the boost exceeds 22 psi in 1st and 2nd, and will also do that if I exceed 21 in 3rd.
So I have the Translator Pro set to run 20.5 in 1st and 2nd and 18.6 in 3rd and 4th.

Sorry for babbling on.