pump was working over one year ago with no issues. ran new custom tank and new lines. went to hit button to prime kit and had nothing coming out of hoses. removed pump to see if lines were clogged or pump was not working right. hooked up direct power and ground and pump kicked over. installed it all back together and hit prime button on controller and had meth flowing. took car for a ride and hit prime button and car stumble and a/f's went into the 9's with ease. rolled into the throttle and the red light comes on but does not swtich over to green and the a/f's are the same in the xfi data log as with no meth. is the pump not making enough pressure? am i missing something? thanks guys
pump not working after sitting for one year?
- Thread starter driven87
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2003
you didnt say which system but ill assume your talking about a razor (alkycontrol) system
not to say there isnt a problem but
1- went to hit button to prime kit and had nothing coming out of hoses.
priming dry system will take a while especially with the gain turned down as the pump will spin really slow
but you could have a leaking pump which is why its taking time to come up
2- installed it all back together and hit prime button on controller and had meth flowing
so it does work but with a pressure tester you cant be sure how healthy the pump is
3-took car for a ride and hit prime button and car stumble and a/f's went into the 9's with ease.
looks like its working properly
3- rolled into the throttle and the red light comes on but does not swtich over to green and the a/f's are the same in the xfi data log as with no meth
up till now youve been using the prime button .. if red light comes on at about 6psi then youve confirmed a map signal activation of pump . if you are running with gain low it will take more boost to change over (approx 12psi)
also the reason why the logs may show no change is possible how your xfi is setup , if you test when first started the car is in open loop until warmed up and you will see the af drop , usually the setup is to delay closed loop until 120deg coolant temp , once in closed loop then xfi should be correcting the afs to your AF table .also at idle the AF targets are leaner and injectors flowing very little so it takes less alky to make it overcome the correction ability and send the afs to 9s
at 6psi which is where hte turnon point should be the injectors are flowing more and the af targts are lower so if xfi is doing the corecting thing it should remain constant even with alky flowing ..what you should see in closed loop is the o2 correction jump to pull fuel and a drop in the injector duty
check the pump pressure
he sells a pressure tester kit which is a nice thing to have to occassionally check things out and know if the pump is getting weak, check the component operation or to find leaks and such.
with all that said if in doubt you can always call razor and have him talk you through some tests on the pump or the system, or you could always send the pump or controller in to razor and have the them checked out .
ps . if you're not on a razor kit all i can say is a qoute from millenium man .. "sucks to be you"
not to say there isnt a problem but
1- went to hit button to prime kit and had nothing coming out of hoses.
priming dry system will take a while especially with the gain turned down as the pump will spin really slow
but you could have a leaking pump which is why its taking time to come up
2- installed it all back together and hit prime button on controller and had meth flowing
so it does work but with a pressure tester you cant be sure how healthy the pump is
3-took car for a ride and hit prime button and car stumble and a/f's went into the 9's with ease.
looks like its working properly
3- rolled into the throttle and the red light comes on but does not swtich over to green and the a/f's are the same in the xfi data log as with no meth
up till now youve been using the prime button .. if red light comes on at about 6psi then youve confirmed a map signal activation of pump . if you are running with gain low it will take more boost to change over (approx 12psi)
also the reason why the logs may show no change is possible how your xfi is setup , if you test when first started the car is in open loop until warmed up and you will see the af drop , usually the setup is to delay closed loop until 120deg coolant temp , once in closed loop then xfi should be correcting the afs to your AF table .also at idle the AF targets are leaner and injectors flowing very little so it takes less alky to make it overcome the correction ability and send the afs to 9s
at 6psi which is where hte turnon point should be the injectors are flowing more and the af targts are lower so if xfi is doing the corecting thing it should remain constant even with alky flowing ..what you should see in closed loop is the o2 correction jump to pull fuel and a drop in the injector duty
check the pump pressure
he sells a pressure tester kit which is a nice thing to have to occassionally check things out and know if the pump is getting weak, check the component operation or to find leaks and such.
with all that said if in doubt you can always call razor and have him talk you through some tests on the pump or the system, or you could always send the pump or controller in to razor and have the them checked out .
ps . if you're not on a razor kit all i can say is a qoute from millenium man .. "sucks to be you"
Since the system is now trunk mounted, my first question is the pumps inlet lower than the tanks outlet?
I saw an issue similar to this some time ago they mounted the pump higher than the tank.. what happened was because the system is progressive when it activates it applies a low voltage like 3 volts to spin the pump.. 3 volts will not draw fluid and light stays red.. once you ramp up power.. 4,5,6,7,8 volts pump will draw fluid "better" but this is why the pump normally sits below the reservoir.
2nd issue.. I dont know if you've installed a checkvalve on the pressure side. This will be needed when hose lengths get greater than a few feet.
3rd.. Tank properly vented. No vent=no liquid coming out.
4th.. How old is the pump? Does it have the rubber sleeve on it, or is it an older piece? Pumps typically suffer from two problems. 1.. They leak. 2.. water gets into the motor from getting wet under the car. The 2 issue was resolved when the sleeve when on it. So if the pump doesnt leak and has a sleeve.. more than likely it should be ok.
Post back.. I dont know your name or if I helped with the relocation of the parts/lines/etc. Clarify what tank, what lines, and their placement.
I saw an issue similar to this some time ago they mounted the pump higher than the tank.. what happened was because the system is progressive when it activates it applies a low voltage like 3 volts to spin the pump.. 3 volts will not draw fluid and light stays red.. once you ramp up power.. 4,5,6,7,8 volts pump will draw fluid "better" but this is why the pump normally sits below the reservoir.
2nd issue.. I dont know if you've installed a checkvalve on the pressure side. This will be needed when hose lengths get greater than a few feet.
3rd.. Tank properly vented. No vent=no liquid coming out.
4th.. How old is the pump? Does it have the rubber sleeve on it, or is it an older piece? Pumps typically suffer from two problems. 1.. They leak. 2.. water gets into the motor from getting wet under the car. The 2 issue was resolved when the sleeve when on it. So if the pump doesnt leak and has a sleeve.. more than likely it should be ok.
Post back.. I dont know your name or if I helped with the relocation of the parts/lines/etc. Clarify what tank, what lines, and their placement.
i have the tank mounted on the firewall and a line going inside the front fender feeding the pump which is mounted to the front bumper brackets. the line going from the tank to the pump is about 4.5' long. the pump is an older one with permatex in teh joints but no sleeve on it. the xfi showed no 02 correction at 13psi from the regular old 93 octane tune. withot touching the tune i would have thought i would have seen the xfi running rich and trying to take out at least -15 in the correction? when i rolled into it to test it out i had the controller on the halfway point if i remember correctly. this is on a turbo 6.0ls motor too if that matters. i may have to take it out again to do a full third gear pull and see what happens.
Ok. So lets go back to basics.
1) Start engine.. place Blue GAIN knob on position 8.. now push and hold the test the button.. does the light go red to green? Does motor stumble hard?
2) Next.. since you have an LS motor, you no longer run 25 PSI boost? typically when I do an LS setup they will use a 2 or 2.5 bar MAP sensor. and you rescale the PAC controller for the sensor. This is done as the 2 or 2.5 bar map will have more resolution than the 3 bar map. Unless your plans are 1K to the tire.. then you really shouldnt be screwing around with an old pump. And 13 PSI is a lot of boost on a higher compression motor=more methanol. At this point put the motor under boost and make sure the LED goes red at 4-5 PSI and Green at 6-8 PSI. Leaving the GAIN knob on position 8.
3) If you plan on using the 3 bar, move the turnon point down to like 4 psi for turnon. But do this once you know you have a properly working system.
i have a 3 bar map sensor in the car. im hoping to run around 20-22psi and put down 900+ all said and done with the meth kit. when the car is running and i hit the button the led goes red and the motor stumbles and the a/f dip way into the 9's. its a fully built 6.0 with a pt88 turbo, motor is 9.1:1. only running 13psi for the moment as im dialing some stuff in. i dialed it in on 13psi where the correction is as close to 0 as possible at 11.0 a/f setting. with the meth on the 02's did not change and the a/f stayed the same. this setup was in the car when it had the buick motor in it. i believe it still has the turn on point as it was set from you back in the day.
Single or Twin nozzle kit?
The kit has an LED. Goes Red to Green. What is the LED doing under boost? Is it going Red?? If so at what boost.. Knob on 8 correct?
Once it goes Red should get richer.. and when it makes 50 PSI goes Green. If it goes Red at 7 PSI.. by 10 should be going Green.
Post back.
Here's an easy pump test. Hook the system up on 1 nozzle. Meaning disconnect the T and 2 short hoses. Now connect main line to make kit a single nozzle. Pick either nozzle. Go inside car.. start engine.. Push and hold test button.. LED should go red to green. If it doesnt on a single nozzle.. you have pump issues or a leak.
You can buy a tester kit to sweep the system and test it that way as well. Those are 75.00(guage/nozzle/simulator/cap, fittings)
I'm not a fan of a system that possibly isnt working like it should to go and make a WOT pull. In other words if it doesnt build pressure on a single.. it wont on a twin. And it has no business under heavy load. We need to have a green light condition before hammering down on the throttle.
Unless you want to be picking up pieces.
ok hooked up it so only one nozzle was getting meth. turned the knob all the way up, started car up and hit test button. it instantly went from red to green and bogged the motor down. how do i set this up for an LS motor running a 3bar map and shooting for 18psi for now then 20-22 later on. thanks razor
The setup it has currently(Buick) should be close, meaning it activates at 6-7 PSI boost. Just leave the gain knob at 7 since this will accelerate the pump faster.
So now that the kit works using the test button on a single nozzle.. Take it out for a ride and watch the LED activate at 6-7 PSI(red) and should go Green by 8-9 PSI boost. If so then its working. At this point contemplate going to the twin nozzle if your anticipating over 700 WHP.
The single nozzle kit should take the motor into the 700 RWHP range. I dont know if you've dyno'd the setup yet. My only concern is that nothing has changed from when this thread started. Meaning the kit was suppossedly not working.. and i'm still wondering why? So far it passes the test button..Good.. Now lets see if it activates under boost.. if not then you have issues with the 3 bar map(vacuum hose, power, etc)
Post back
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
Already on the market??
I made a low psi "tester" for the Innovate w/g system. It is a low psi gauge, adj regulator, some hose. It works well. Why not use something like that to put "boost" to the MAP sensor?? [I used it to avoid sweeping the engine up w/ a broom.]
I made a low psi "tester" for the Innovate w/g system. It is a low psi gauge, adj regulator, some hose. It works well. Why not use something like that to put "boost" to the MAP sensor?? [I used it to avoid sweeping the engine up w/ a broom.]
yes im plan on making well over 700 at the tires. i will hook the dual nozzle setup back up and make a test hit this weekend with the setting on teh knob almost all the way up. i think the reason it was not working from the beginning is the long line i installed with the new tank needed time to fill maybe? should i have it come on at 6-7 or 4-5 psi? ill post back when i get a chance to take it for a ride, thanks guys
- Joined
- May 28, 2001
When you do...
"ill post back when i get a chance to take it for a ride, thanks guys "..............Take some oil dry and a broom with you....
"ill post back when i get a chance to take it for a ride, thanks guys "..............Take some oil dry and a broom with you....
The line from tank to pump should not need priming. Unless there is a kink or some other issue. The pumps head if dry could require priming.. but the test button should have accomplished that.
Now..
Yes you can make it come on earlier, But... i'm wanting to not make changes to get to the bottom of why it wasnt working.. creating this thread.. before I have you go and start making changes to within the controller. Again to see if its working.
Is the LED going red at 15 PSI? Then going Green at 15 PSI?
Make sure the LED is going Red by 7-8 PSI and green when it crisses 10-12 PSI. 15 PSI for it to go green is tad high.
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