PT96 Turbo!!!

[MissingMyBuick]

Does anybody know of someone that is running the PT96 turbo. I want to see what kind of times people are running with them. I saw a picture of a guy holding it and it was twice as big as the guys head!!! Capable of supporting up to 1850 hp!!!

 

[86brick]

Dude where have you been? There are plenty of small block V8 mustangs and F-bodies with single 101mm and 106mm turbos that run in the high to mid 6 second range.... I don't think PTE makes the PT-96 anymore I know they make the PT-98 which is capable of about 1800-1900hp and Bill Anderson (EightSecV6) will be using one on his Stage II tube frame race car and last I heard he is expecting it to be in the 1600hp range and his car weighs 2100lbs so I'm guessing high 6 second passes won't be a problem.... I've seen a 10.5" tire SBF mustang that weighed around 3000lbs with a single 91mm turbo running mid 7's.... I'd guess a single PT-96 turbo small block V8 car that weighs around 3000lbs could run mid to low 7's @180-190mph with that turbo.... Weight and HP determine how fast you can go along with traction (60' times)!

 

[86brick]

BTW, if you're talking about using this turbo on a Stage II Buick V6 I don't think you will see many using that big of a single turbo because you have to remember that we have a small displacement V6 which makes spooling a turbo that big quite a task.... The biggest single most run is the PT-88 although I have seen a couple with a PT-91 and last I heard Dale Cherry is somehow using a PT-100mm turbo on his car (think he has the special FB Performance VSC tranny).... Most guys running single turbos that big have a small block V8 (more cubes and 2 more cylinders helps a lot when trying to spool up such a big turbo)....

 

[MissingMyBuick]

86Brick, I feel dumb now. This may sound like a really dumb question, Is the name of the turbo the exact size of the turbo? Example PT96=96mm turbo; TA49=49mm;etc. Also that would be refering to the compressor side, right? Sorry if these are really lame questions, I am just trying to get my facts straight.

Also, you said that it would be really hard for a Stage II to spool that big of a turbo. What about the guys that are using the 4.5 Liter? I know it isn't that much more displacement, but every bit helps right? Thanks

 

[Reggie West]

Missing dont feel dumb.

The numbers associated with these turbos dont always equate to the compressor size.

 

[86brick]

Originally posted by MissingMyBuick
86Brick, I feel dumb now. This may sound like a really dumb question, Is the name of the turbo the exact size of the turbo? Example PT96=96mm turbo; TA49=49mm;etc. Also that would be refering to the compressor side, right? Sorry if these are really lame questions, I am just trying to get my facts straight.

Also, you said that it would be really hard for a Stage II to spool that big of a turbo. What about the guys that are using the 4.5 Liter? I know it isn't that much more displacement, but every bit helps right? Thanks

Well the name of the turbo is not always the exact size.... For example a TE45 has a 63mm compressor wheel and a TE45A has a 66mm compressor wheel.... However a TE-63 does have a 63mm wheel and a TE66 does have a 66mm wheel.... The way I understand it the 70 series turbos and bigger are all named with the size of the compressor wheel for example PT74=74mm turbo, PT88=88mm turbo, PT106=106mm turbo.... When I said a Stage II motor I was already assuming more cubes because most of them are not 231ci (3.8-liters) they are 274ci (4.5-liter) motors, but this is still fairly small in terms of displacement compared to a 375ci SBF V8 (figure about 100 more cubes and don't forget those 2 extra cyl.) The extra cubes over a 231ci motor definitely helps spool up, but only to a certain point because the majority of these thumper turbos (91mm to 106mm turbos) where built for some bigger V8s that have some displacement and flow some serious air like a 406ci SB2 headed SBC or a 400ci Yates headed SBF.... Most of these huge thumper turbos are for race only cars anyhow cause they need around a 5000-6000 stall converter and most serious racers like the turbo Pro 5.0 Mustang guys like Chuck Samuel use a stick (5-speed Liberty manual transmission) instead of an automatic to spool up those huge turbos especially off the line (cause with an auto you wouldn't be able to cut a decent light waiting for the turbo to spool up) cause those guys race with a Pro-Tree.... The bottom line is the smaller the motor and 2 less cylinders makes spooling a huge turbo up more of a task which usually means a bigger stall converter or having to use a stick like Bill Anderson who will be using that 5-speed Liberty!

 

[MissingMyBuick]

Thanks for clearing that up for me guys. You guys are great. One more question. How big is the stock GN turbo? Just curious.

 

[John Wilde]

Steve,

You are the man. Your post almost brought a tear to my eye.
The trick with getting the bigger turbos to spool on a v-6 is compression. 9.5 to 10 to 1 is not out of the question.
Alan Witter, Bill Anderson, Dale Cherry, LC and my boy Cal Hartline all run more than 9.0. Some as high as 10.5 to 1.
I can't tell you who and how I know!

 

[86brick]

The stock GN turbo is a T3/T4 hybrid, but I couldn't tell you off hand the size of the compressor wheel but I'll guess it's 34-38mm turbo.... Also, last I checked there were some differences between the stock 84-85 hotair turbos and the 86-87 turbos that were listed on the gnttype.org website....

John, I knew I left something out in my post! As you said compression is a very key part to making bigger turbos spool on a V6.... I remember reading that thread Lonnie started in the Stage II section about what most Stage II guys are running CR wise and it seemed like many liked running more than 9.0:1 and a little less boost.... There is so much good info you can learn from asking the "big dogs" good questions as Lonnie did in that particular thread!

What's that old saying? Oh yeah, "Knowledge is power!"

 

[QWKSLVR]

Here is a link to a video of a NMRA/FFW Outlaw Racer by the name of John Urist from New Mexico, he tested at Firebird a year or so ago.......the car is a 302 block with 349CI a 91mm Turbo and a 4500 stall converter, the video doesn't show the whole staging process, but he started spooling the turbo way before he rolled into second stage light. also a good shot of the engine and huge turbo. Awesome video brought to you by TrentK Productions. Also check out www.turbomustangs.com about guys useing some big turbos on street cars


http://www.azmustangs.com/videos/april26/uristvideo.wmv

 

[myclone]

Mind if I ask an incredibly dumb question? How are those guys running the liberty or other manual gear box spooling the turbo? Are they just using RPM or is there some other trick? In my experience with manual trans equiped turbo engines you get very little boost without putting some load on the engine like an auto trans equiped car can. Are they using a "slipper clutch" or the like to provide some load to aid spool up?

 

[86brick]

Originally posted by myclone
Mind if I ask an incredibly dumb question? How are those guys running the liberty or other manual gear box spooling the turbo? Are they just using RPM or is there some other trick? In my experience with manual trans equiped turbo engines you get very little boost without putting some load on the engine like an auto trans equiped car can. Are they using a "slipper clutch" or the like to provide some load to aid spool up?

Myclone, to try and answer your question yes they seem to use "slip" with the clutch to get these turbos to spool up for those awesome 60' times.... From what I've heard spool up is pretty much instant with a clutch on these big thumper turbo Pro 5.0 cars or most any other turbo race car with a Liberty 5-speed.... All the real serious twin turbo or single turbo Stage II Buicks like Lawrence Conley's big single turbo Tweaked TR and Kenny Duttweiler's twin turbo 6 second Olds Cutlass used a 5-speed Liberty trans.... I'm sure somebody like Winsett or Bill Anderson could definitely better answer your question because Winsett has a very fast (easily high to mid 7 second) twin turbo Stage II V6 TR using a Liberty and Bill decided to use a Liberty with his single turbo beast that will be making some passes at BG possibly (hopefully)! I hope some of what I said answered your question

BTW, for those of you who like Pro 5.0 cars check out this badass turbo car I found....

http://www.wynnespeed.com/pro50.asp

 

[myclone]

Originally posted by 86brick
Myclone, to try and answer your question yes they seem to use "slip" with the clutch to get these turbos to spool up for those awesome 60' times.... From what I've heard spool up is pretty much instant with a clutch on these big thumper turbo Pro 5.0 cars or most any other turbo race car with a Liberty 5-speed.... All the real serious twin turbo or single turbo Stage II Buicks like Lawrence Conley's big single turbo Tweaked TR and Kenny Duttweiler's twin turbo 6 second Olds Cutlass used a 5-speed Liberty trans.... I'm sure somebody like Winsett or Bill Anderson could definitely better answer your question because Winsett has a very fast (easily high to mid 7 second) twin turbo Stage II V6 TR using a Liberty and Bill decided to use a Liberty with his single turbo beast that will be making some passes at BG possibly (hopefully)! I hope some of what I said answered your question

BTW, for those of you who like Pro 5.0 cars check out this badass turbo car I found....

http://www.wynnespeed.com/pro50.asp

Thanks for the info.. Dunno if I was specific enough or maybe I just need to go watch some of these cars run to see how they do it . Lemme ask a different way and see if that helps.


Do the stick turbo cars launch by just dumping the clutch at high RPM with low/no boost and the boost comes up quick enough they really dont have to "spool" the turbo while staged?

or

Do they use a slipper clutch or some other method to load the engine down and actually build some boost before they launch?

The reason I ask is..... to make a long story short.... I fired up my syclone when I first got it after tinkering under the hood and forgot my TB was fixed at WOT. Before I could shut it off it bounced off the rev limiter a couple of times but at the same time I noticed the boost gauge read ~2psi. That got me curious so I experimented with putting the trans in nuetral and revving the engine (not bouncing it off the rev limiter though) and got a max of MAYBE 1psi no matter how hard I revved it. Next I put it in gear to "load" the engine and could get plenty of boost with minimal throttle opening.

Thats why Im curious as to whether or not the stick turbo "race cars" actually launch with no/low boost or is there a way that they have found to actually build boost before they launch.

 

[86brick]

From what I can see it sure looks like they are using a slipper clutch to boost before they launch and it seems like they use something like a 2-step rev limiter cause when I watched John Gullet make a pass with his turbo Pro 5.0 car all I heard was this popping noise at the line with a slight turbo spool sound and when the tree comes down all you hear is that jet like turbo sound and 6 seconds and 210+mph later the board lights up!!! If you ever get the chance to see a turbo Pro 5.0 mustang at an event like the FFW it's well worth it (I wish I would have taken my video camera)

As I said somebody like Winsett or Bill could better answer this cause they both have turbo stick race cars, but from what my eyes can see and from what I can hear they are spooling them up at the line!

 

[KendallF]

The Lenco/Liberty cars use a rev limiter to build boost, along with some other tricks like retarding the timing. The clutch slip is important to get the car to hook but not really a factor in getting it to spool.

 

[86brick]

Thanks for clearing that up Kendall!

 

[myclone]

A second thanks to ya Kendall. Ive never seen any of the fast turbo cars race cept at the buick nats last year and all of them were auto equipped (needless to say ) so I never knew how they did it.

I know I need to go see an event that features some of these cars but working weekend 12 hour shifts makes that tough. There is a FFW event at VA motorsports park every year and a buncha mustang buds are always pestering me to go. I guess I might hafta take a day off and go watch those ford guys.