I have the Pro-Pain kit installed currently. So far everything has checked out, filled it up, pressure is about 150, theres a second gauge on the left that I dont remember the number on. I left my boost at 16 or 17 (what I run normally on pump gas) to see if it lights up right. With it on, the injection point seems to be working and lighting up fine. So my question is how do I know if its really injecting propane correctly before I start turning up the boost? Also, is there any harm to having it inject propane around 15psi right now?
Pro-Pain help!
- Thread starter DR. EVIL
- Start date
actually I had some motor work done, and had them install the kit during the work. so technically I didnt wire it 
however, it does seem to appear right so far. I just wondered if theres a test to see it physically working. most likely I'll just watch knock and go from there.
know the cheapest best way to watch the knock? I'm not exactly in a position to buy and laptop and drop $250+ for turbo link right now. I had a scanmaster before, but never seemed to work correctly for me.
however, it does seem to appear right so far. I just wondered if theres a test to see it physically working. most likely I'll just watch knock and go from there.
know the cheapest best way to watch the knock? I'm not exactly in a position to buy and laptop and drop $250+ for turbo link right now. I had a scanmaster before, but never seemed to work correctly for me.
If you cannot monitor your motor.. do not boost it/spray it/race it.
Dont know your "issues" with the scanmaster, its a proven simple tool. Maybe you had bad connections??
Cheap and effective dont mix.. cheap knock guage.. the audible from Caspers.. 45 bucks. then the LED lite one.. like 75 bucks. Then you have the scanmasterII fo like 275. The Turbolink/Direct Scan + laptop.. then you can buy a WB O2 sensor.
There are others like the OTC2000/4000, scanner from autozone, etc..
But you cannot race one of these motors "blind" let alone screw around injecting anything. If you play the guessing game.. guess what happens. Then you wont have any money to buy anything.
HTH
PS.. personally if you wanted to buy my system and told me you didnt have a scantool on the car... I wouldnt sell to you.
Dont know your "issues" with the scanmaster, its a proven simple tool. Maybe you had bad connections??
Cheap and effective dont mix.. cheap knock guage.. the audible from Caspers.. 45 bucks. then the LED lite one.. like 75 bucks. Then you have the scanmasterII fo like 275. The Turbolink/Direct Scan + laptop.. then you can buy a WB O2 sensor.
There are others like the OTC2000/4000, scanner from autozone, etc..
But you cannot race one of these motors "blind" let alone screw around injecting anything. If you play the guessing game.. guess what happens. Then you wont have any money to buy anything.
HTH
PS.. personally if you wanted to buy my system and told me you didnt have a scantool on the car... I wouldnt sell to you.
I had the car on a dyno before driving it on the street checking out air/fuel and knock, and am still running less boost now than in the runs. So thats why I'm now wanting to get the knock detector. I bought the Scanmaster used and I think there was something wrong with the connector on it, because when I borrowed a Turbolink from a friend (who unfortunately sold it later on) the numbers were all correct.
I've been looking into getting an Autoxray, I've used one on the car before to see the numbers and I remember it working good. Its small and portable and dont need to do much to use it. I cant remember if it displayed knock or not though. Found some for good price on ebay.
I've been looking into getting an Autoxray, I've used one on the car before to see the numbers and I remember it working good. Its small and portable and dont need to do much to use it. I cant remember if it displayed knock or not though. Found some for good price on ebay.
DR. EVIL said:
And what scantool was used on the dyno?
How was it determined that no knock was present?
And how were the basic parameters like IAC, TPS, BLM, INT, etc determined to be properly setup for your vehicle?
And how did they tune the car? Were chips made to correct issues?
I have the Translator Plus with the extender chip, so I can set the lean/rich % and timing in the box. I can change the idle to rich, lean, no change. And my WOT from 14% lean to 14% rich in 2% increments. Can change timing in increments of 2 for under 3500rpms and over separately.
They could check exhaust temp, O2s and such, dont remember everything. I recently set my TPS and check the other stats with the Scanmaster and seems normal.
Right now my TPS is .42 stopped if I remember and went to something like 4.4 WOT (hope I remember that right)
I was only running about 15psi and creeped to 17psi once but never higher, no knock with or without the Propane on. I did notice my O2's go a little higher with the propane on and it didn't pull as hard. Also seems like my O2's are way to high for just cruising along at 20ish mph. around 750-860 O2s at those speeds. at WOT with about 16psi they were in the 800-820 range consistantly. At 70mph no WOT they stay 650+ usually no boost.
I think my BLM was 128?
my problem with the scanmaster is when the tranny is in OD, the scanmaster throws out goofy numbers, like MPH 400, knock 45, O2's 002 and when I hit the gas slightly and get out of OD the O2s go normal and knock back to 0.0. and sometimes while I'm just idling it throws out the same goofy way extreme numbers.
I have a manual boost controller under the hood. I turned it a few 360's CW and CCW and no change in boost... I dont remember which makes the boost rise, thinking its CW? I'll just keep turning til it goes up some. I can always make the rod longer on the adjustable wastegate instead I suppose.
They could check exhaust temp, O2s and such, dont remember everything. I recently set my TPS and check the other stats with the Scanmaster and seems normal.
Right now my TPS is .42 stopped if I remember and went to something like 4.4 WOT (hope I remember that right)
I was only running about 15psi and creeped to 17psi once but never higher, no knock with or without the Propane on. I did notice my O2's go a little higher with the propane on and it didn't pull as hard. Also seems like my O2's are way to high for just cruising along at 20ish mph. around 750-860 O2s at those speeds. at WOT with about 16psi they were in the 800-820 range consistantly. At 70mph no WOT they stay 650+ usually no boost.
I think my BLM was 128?
my problem with the scanmaster is when the tranny is in OD, the scanmaster throws out goofy numbers, like MPH 400, knock 45, O2's 002 and when I hit the gas slightly and get out of OD the O2s go normal and knock back to 0.0. and sometimes while I'm just idling it throws out the same goofy way extreme numbers.
I have a manual boost controller under the hood. I turned it a few 360's CW and CCW and no change in boost... I dont remember which makes the boost rise, thinking its CW? I'll just keep turning til it goes up some. I can always make the rod longer on the adjustable wastegate instead I suppose.
I'm monitering the car with the scantool.
something is causing random false knock though. Even with the propane running, once every 5 times I hit the gas it gets outrageous retard outta no where, and this is with propane and 15psi. Most the time, only knock I see is like .5-1.5 on the shift and nothing else. The O2's seem a little high though, over 820 usually at WOT.
Other odd thing I'm seeing is sometimes when I slow down from 65mph down to about 30mph, it stays in the 820 O2 level and throws a code and SES light comes on. If I rev the motor up once, the O2s lower down to normal and SES goes off.
something is causing random false knock though. Even with the propane running, once every 5 times I hit the gas it gets outrageous retard outta no where, and this is with propane and 15psi. Most the time, only knock I see is like .5-1.5 on the shift and nothing else. The O2's seem a little high though, over 820 usually at WOT.
Other odd thing I'm seeing is sometimes when I slow down from 65mph down to about 30mph, it stays in the 820 O2 level and throws a code and SES light comes on. If I rev the motor up once, the O2s lower down to normal and SES goes off.
Propane and gasoline have different burning characteristics that may make tuning a little interesting. Propane must be burned at the correct A/F ratio or combustion and/or exhaust temps can get out of hand. As you go richer with propane, it gets hotter. Since your burning both gasoline and propane you might need to change your target A/F ratio to burn the combination of both more efficiently. Its common knowledge that if you burn a propane fueled engine too rich, you will burn it up. Typically, a rich mixture of propane will increase head temperature and valve seat temps by 40-60 degrees F. How this knowledge relates to what your doing, I can't help you with that. I have no tuning experience with propane. But if the propane your injecting is burning in a rich mode, I can see where the extra heat might be pushing the engine into detonation. Also, propane engines need a low thermostat (165) to keep the engine cooler. Use at least one step colder plugs and close the gaps. Propane is harder to fire than gasoline. Propane is slow burning in lean mixtures and can increase exhaust temps and decrease valve life in that situation. If the propane is being injected as a gas, and is being mixed with the incoming air well, distribution would probably be OK. Try pointing the injection nozzle upstream to the incoming air for a better mix. If any of the content is injected as a liquid and converts to a gas in the intake track, I can definitely see the chance of a distribution problem. Again, point the nozzle upstream. A strictly propane fueled engine requires the ignition timing advanced below 1500 rpm and retarded above 2000 rpm. How this info works in your situation will have to be worked out. Put on your tune up hat. Good luck.
Another note. Propane contains less energy per weight compared to gasoline at a bit leaner A/F ratio compared to gasoline. I wouldn't get carried away injecting too much propane. It will just take up space that could be used to carry the higher energy fuel, gasoline. You might have more boost, but having more boost is only part of the equation.
Another note. Propane contains less energy per weight compared to gasoline at a bit leaner A/F ratio compared to gasoline. I wouldn't get carried away injecting too much propane. It will just take up space that could be used to carry the higher energy fuel, gasoline. You might have more boost, but having more boost is only part of the equation.
Pronto
Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
"I bought the Scanmaster used and I think there was something wrong with the connector on it, because when I borrowed a Turbolink from a friend (who unfortunately sold it later on) the numbers were all correct."
Simple answer here is buy a NEW Scanmaster. Your asking to blow your engine dicking with timing, fueling and throwing propane at it blindly. BTW, why do you think they call it Pro-Pain? I suggest scraping the system and getting Alkycontrol. At least you can find out if the system is working by using the "test" button.
Simple answer here is buy a NEW Scanmaster. Your asking to blow your engine dicking with timing, fueling and throwing propane at it blindly. BTW, why do you think they call it Pro-Pain? I suggest scraping the system and getting Alkycontrol. At least you can find out if the system is working by using the "test" button.
I find it hard to scrap a $500 system already installed in the car. I have no indications that it is not working correctly so far.
I've watched the scanmaster at all types of throttle in the MPH mode and several others that I have something to compare to (like RPM) to see if its reacting correctly under load. So far no problems when I'm actually running the car at close to, or at WOT. The only times I'm seeing strange readings is in OD or parked with the brakes on, so not when it really matters as far as tuning. I wish I could drop $250 for a new one, but its not exactly in the cards right now.
The propane is injecting as a gas up into the intake, a few inches from the throttle opening as instructed. I have a 160 degree thermostat and colder plugs, AC Delco ones that many on the board also use.
I'm still not getting any consistant knock, but its still too rich for my tastes.
Suppose its also possible the translator isnt functioning properly, or the ECM for that matter. That translator is connected to the computer basically, and controls the air/fuel % and timing.
Is there anyone with experience in tuning a propane injected GN?
I've watched the scanmaster at all types of throttle in the MPH mode and several others that I have something to compare to (like RPM) to see if its reacting correctly under load. So far no problems when I'm actually running the car at close to, or at WOT. The only times I'm seeing strange readings is in OD or parked with the brakes on, so not when it really matters as far as tuning. I wish I could drop $250 for a new one, but its not exactly in the cards right now.
The propane is injecting as a gas up into the intake, a few inches from the throttle opening as instructed. I have a 160 degree thermostat and colder plugs, AC Delco ones that many on the board also use.
I'm still not getting any consistant knock, but its still too rich for my tastes.
Suppose its also possible the translator isnt functioning properly, or the ECM for that matter. That translator is connected to the computer basically, and controls the air/fuel % and timing.
Is there anyone with experience in tuning a propane injected GN?
I shut off the propane and started tuning some without it. So far its running very strong, getting a little knock with it 2% leaner than the chip is set, so I'll keep adding fuel til its back in line. O2s were lookin pretty good, but a little low in the 770's. I'll just work on it without propane and then deal with that later.
GNVYUS 1
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2002
I would not concern yourself with 02's when you are not at WOT. Stick with the BLM or INT when cruising and the 02's when WOT.
Phantom knock is common on these cars, I used to get it due to a downpipe banging the control arm when I hammered it. After fixing that problem I used to get the huge amounts of knock from a half chewed up power wire that ran from the battery to the starter. Check to see if it is getting caught up in the motor mount etc.
15psi is pretty normal for a stock IC and stockish timing. Kick it up a few psi and see if you get any knock up top. If it knocks at 17psi with the pro pain on, thats not right.
Didn't those kits have an option for a regulator in car to check the pressure??
I personally like the scanmaster, see if Full Throttle Speed will check it out for you and get back to tuning with ease.
Phantom knock is common on these cars, I used to get it due to a downpipe banging the control arm when I hammered it. After fixing that problem I used to get the huge amounts of knock from a half chewed up power wire that ran from the battery to the starter. Check to see if it is getting caught up in the motor mount etc.
15psi is pretty normal for a stock IC and stockish timing. Kick it up a few psi and see if you get any knock up top. If it knocks at 17psi with the pro pain on, thats not right.
Didn't those kits have an option for a regulator in car to check the pressure??
I personally like the scanmaster, see if Full Throttle Speed will check it out for you and get back to tuning with ease.
An important thing to keep in mind when injecting propane. When propane is introduced into the intake in an already gaseous form, it offers no cooling effect to the intake charge. Only as propane turns from a liquid state to a gas is any cooling offered.
seems that I have it running pretty good now without the propane.
Have the timing at 17 degrees, 2% rich fuel and about 17psi. Seems like the only knock I get is random false knock from something. I'm bad at tracking that down. I'm getting low 800's around 812 O2's at WOT so that seems pretty good I think. It's pulling good, and its helping that its not 100 degrees outside now for the time being.
I guess I'll introduce the propane and start uping the boost first, then worry about timing later. Seems like as I've been dealing with one thing at a time, its been easier to get running right. I started upping the fuel on the translator til it stopped knocking at WOT and downed it 1psi and it cleared up good.
What WOT O2's should I shoot for with propane running? Wont upping the boost decrease the O2s naturally before I lean the fuel?
Have the timing at 17 degrees, 2% rich fuel and about 17psi. Seems like the only knock I get is random false knock from something. I'm bad at tracking that down. I'm getting low 800's around 812 O2's at WOT so that seems pretty good I think. It's pulling good, and its helping that its not 100 degrees outside now for the time being.
I guess I'll introduce the propane and start uping the boost first, then worry about timing later. Seems like as I've been dealing with one thing at a time, its been easier to get running right. I started upping the fuel on the translator til it stopped knocking at WOT and downed it 1psi and it cleared up good.
What WOT O2's should I shoot for with propane running? Wont upping the boost decrease the O2s naturally before I lean the fuel?
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