problems with #1 and #2 suggest a air flow distribution problem not a fueling problem. Alky injection follows airflow distribution until inertia skews that relationship.it was #2 for me last time
Popped an MLS gasket and cracked a piston on 100 octane and meth...
- Thread starter EYE-OPENER
- Start date
You have to be very careful about tuning a motor to the edge, and then getting on it in quick succession with little time for cool down in between. The tune may get you by on the first run, but with cylinder temps now up from the first run, on the second run you're not so lucky with the same tune. Especially with lean alky in the picture.
Scott Atk
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
I believe the issue is weather related. Almost all the #1 and #2 issues with ALKY occur during the winter months. When it's cold outside, and you're running on the edge, the ALKY falls out of suspension, when this happens the air going to the front cylinders is "dryer" than the rear. I have personally logged inlet temps in the 30*F range during the winter months. If the inlet temps fall below the 70* range you run the risk of running lean in the front cylinders when injecting lots of ALKY.
i sort of agree with you there scott,
most people run more alky then they need, when i turned the alky down my runs cleaned up a lot. This is more prevelant in the winter months when the air charge is already cooler.
Here we go AGAIN !!! It's the alkys fault. ya ya... thats it. Guess if everyone stopped using it the vendors would loose all sorts of business because engines wouldn't blow up We have it on all my beaters here.. Melissa's first motor(borrow from my Mazda) had prob 23/25k miles on it.. We just took it apart a week ago an things looked pretty good. Bearings had a little wear but for what it has gone threw that will happen. Suppose to mag everything next week an if everything is ok it just goes back together with new rings and bearings along with a timing chain. Melissa's 2nd motor has about 11/12k on it I think.. Over 8k this past summer.. Hasn't missed a beat running 27/29ish#s of boost on the street . She is prob getting another "slug" to try out in a few weeks. Will it have Alky ??? DAMM RIGHT
We have it on all my beaters here.. Melissa's first motor(borrow from my Mazda) had prob 23/25k miles on it.. We just took it apart a week ago an things looked pretty good. Bearings had a little wear but for what it has gone threw that will happen. Suppose to mag everything next week an if everything is ok it just goes back together with new rings and bearings along with a timing chain. Melissa's 2nd motor has about 11/12k on it I think.. Over 8k this past summer.. Hasn't missed a beat running 27/29ish#s of boost on the street . She is prob getting another "slug" to try out in a few weeks. Will it have Alky ??? DAMM RIGHT giving this some thought. I had Melissa's car out the other night running some errands.. Prob around 30/35*s out.. I gave it a little gas every now an then an the car would take off but will spin the tires a little.. Street is cold and of course doesn't really like full throttle passes.
So how can you guys go out an have it full throttle for even 10 seconds??? Oh we really don't run much alky .. Maybe its RJCs magic power plate ...So are you guys getting any knock??
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2003
im still on stock rail with an aeromotive stock style regulator mounted in stock position on the rail
went plenty fast with that and the stock fuel lines (10.11)
upgraded the lines to rail and from return just because i felt it was time and knew i would be pushing a little harder , none of my data said there was an issue
as for running in cold , the 9.8 run was only in low 40s that day
went plenty fast with that and the stock fuel lines (10.11)
upgraded the lines to rail and from return just because i felt it was time and knew i would be pushing a little harder , none of my data said there was an issue
as for running in cold , the 9.8 run was only in low 40s that day
I have been preaching that for YEARS !!! I think a LOT of guys are way over their head as far as tuning. AND if you have a faster car things happen QUICK !! So ya better be on your best game plan
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
OK the tune is to blame. Then why aren't the back cylinders getting torched?
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
Most of these cars have widebands o2's. The cars are tuned and running well then out of no where, meltdown.
Cylinder 1 is notorious on these motors alcohol or not. As well as #3. This data goes way before injection kits where around. Dont think headgaskets started their thing in the latter 90's.
The wideband reads a collection of all cylinders. So if you have one cylinder at 9:1 and another at 11:1.. thats 10:1 what it reads. "If" your spraying way above whats needed methanol wise.. meaning you dont have the airflow and heat required to make it work properly.. then you can have way more carried to the back of the intake. Thats simple common sense.
So it goes back to tuning. Tuning is not just air fuel numbers. But a proper mix of injection along with fuel to keep it from knocking. Meaning you typically should displace 15-20% of your fueling to get the job done. So its 80-85% fuel, 15-20% methanol. With this amount.. you wont get into issues.
Move it further.. you have someone cranks the knobs up on the system and now is displacing 30-35% fuel. Meaning 65-70% fuel and 30-35% methanol.. or even more.. air fuel is still at 10.5:1 and you think your safe. Guess what.. it gets cold outside, your oversaturating the air.. not enough heat to make it flash.. see you latter. The rear cylinders get richer.. front cylinders get leaner.. air fuel reads the target and you wonder what happened.
Goes back to the old statement when tuning injection. Run just enough meth to stop the knock sensor from coming up. If its 12% or 24%.. if you run just enough.. you never will get into any trouble. Its a proven fact.. thousands of cars running without issue in cold weather. The guys with the success have never been in a hurry to get to a goal. And you can see their progress ET wise over the years. The person trying to set the world on fire and hasnt figured out the car.. there you go.
Now crank the Gain on the system to 8 on twin nozzles in the cold weather and make the kit super aggressive.. there you have it. Distribution issues and results may vary. Haste makes waste.
The wideband reads a collection of all cylinders. So if you have one cylinder at 9:1 and another at 11:1.. thats 10:1 what it reads. "If" your spraying way above whats needed methanol wise.. meaning you dont have the airflow and heat required to make it work properly.. then you can have way more carried to the back of the intake. Thats simple common sense.
So it goes back to tuning. Tuning is not just air fuel numbers. But a proper mix of injection along with fuel to keep it from knocking. Meaning you typically should displace 15-20% of your fueling to get the job done. So its 80-85% fuel, 15-20% methanol. With this amount.. you wont get into issues.
Move it further.. you have someone cranks the knobs up on the system and now is displacing 30-35% fuel. Meaning 65-70% fuel and 30-35% methanol.. or even more.. air fuel is still at 10.5:1 and you think your safe. Guess what.. it gets cold outside, your oversaturating the air.. not enough heat to make it flash.. see you latter. The rear cylinders get richer.. front cylinders get leaner.. air fuel reads the target and you wonder what happened.
Goes back to the old statement when tuning injection. Run just enough meth to stop the knock sensor from coming up. If its 12% or 24%.. if you run just enough.. you never will get into any trouble. Its a proven fact.. thousands of cars running without issue in cold weather. The guys with the success have never been in a hurry to get to a goal. And you can see their progress ET wise over the years. The person trying to set the world on fire and hasnt figured out the car.. there you go.
Now crank the Gain on the system to 8 on twin nozzles in the cold weather and make the kit super aggressive.. there you have it. Distribution issues and results may vary. Haste makes waste.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
You don't have to crank the gain to have problems. It boils down to GPH vs IAT's. A balancing act if you will and we have no control over IAT's. If there is a 40f drop overnight and the car is tuned for 70f weather there is going to be problems no matter what. There is just no way to control distribution. Even with a single nozzle ultra low IAT's will starve the front cylinders. You may not get the meltdown with a 70%-30% tune but your chipping away the gaskets on 1 and 2. I've experienced it first hand.
Bottom line here the intake is not made to distribute liquid fuel(.) Not slamming alky or alky control. It's a great product but there is a problem and from your post above you are aware of it. It would be in everyone's best interest to work toward a solution instead of posting the same old spiel........
Bottom line here the intake is not made to distribute liquid fuel(.) Not slamming alky or alky control. It's a great product but there is a problem and from your post above you are aware of it. It would be in everyone's best interest to work toward a solution instead of posting the same old spiel........
TURBOPOWERED68
David
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2006
Is there a rule of thumb/general guide line on how much fuel to add per degrees of temperature drop? Not for record setting runs but for Safe street driving and Sunday cruises with an occasional WOT blast.
Since you asked..
Well its like this...
1) Not everyone has the issue. This is obvious as we have all the fast cars on the "Fastest List" making the times they do in the cold. Not in Summer.
2) So those who have had an issue we need to on a case by case look at whats in common.
3) Make a list. See whats different between what they're doing and what others are doing.
4) Once we have that.. then start to speculate.
5) Would be nice to show temperature logs along with alcohol pressure to see if there is a relationship.
Solutions..a couple come to mind.
1) The RJC power plate may be one.
2) Running a hotter thermostat like a 180 and making sure engine is up to temperature before racing it. Heat is your friend
3) Do like the semi's do and block off the IC like they do on Semi's in winter. Even a piece of carboard with a small opening so it reduces IC efficiency
4) Get rid of any cold air intake and draw air from engine compartment. Again getting extra heat.
5) Move nozzles back to the front mount end tanks. Check valves or solenoids required. If no BOV present. Increasing distance and time.
Thoughts?
If you've been around these motors long enough.. even on race gas using no alcohol.. the back cylinders never/rarely have the issue. #1 cylinder that goes is #3, then #4, the 1&2.. rarely get 5&6.
We should start a poll in general tech. Actually the TSM forum may be another place to ask.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
I'm with you bro. I just want to get to the bottom of this. All suggestions taken into consideration.
We might be better off to bypass the intercooler all together in cold weather. My car runs the best with IAT's between 60* and 70*F.
I have never run lower than a 180* stat. From a engineers standpoint a 160* is ridiculous. Contrary to urban myth, 160* stats are not right. All new cars run 195*. You and I know they run most efficient that way.
I always run rjc plate but it may not be helping in this situation. It's design to keep the back of the motor from going lean. Our problem is exactly the opposite. More data needed.
Moving the alky nozzle to the cooler tank would give it more time to vaporize but I'm thinking a little different here.
Would like to see a post throttle body nozzle system that injects alky into the intake runners. Like done with nitrous. That would be the ultimate.
Donnie Wang has the right idea we just need to simplify it by either making a plate to go in between the plenum and intake or a modified plenum with some type of nozzle system.
More thoughts?
We might be better off to bypass the intercooler all together in cold weather. My car runs the best with IAT's between 60* and 70*F.
I have never run lower than a 180* stat. From a engineers standpoint a 160* is ridiculous. Contrary to urban myth, 160* stats are not right. All new cars run 195*. You and I know they run most efficient that way.
I always run rjc plate but it may not be helping in this situation. It's design to keep the back of the motor from going lean. Our problem is exactly the opposite. More data needed.
Moving the alky nozzle to the cooler tank would give it more time to vaporize but I'm thinking a little different here.
Would like to see a post throttle body nozzle system that injects alky into the intake runners. Like done with nitrous. That would be the ultimate.
Donnie Wang has the right idea we just need to simplify it by either making a plate to go in between the plenum and intake or a modified plenum with some type of nozzle system.
More thoughts?
