Oil pump rebuild
- Thread starter koch186
- Start date
turbodave231
Moderator
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
Mellings sells a kit. You don't need HV if you set the pump up correctly. The HV pumps load up the driven gear on the cam sensor and cause too much wear.
Do a search on oil pump setup. Earl Brown did a write-up on blueprinting the pump. You'll need to drink lots of beer to follow his instructions, but It is well worth the effort.
Here is a quick list of the parts I use:
Description Part # Manufacturer
Oil pump kit K20I Melling
Oil pump shim kit TA-1704 TA
Oil pump wear plate 224-518TP Speed Pro
Adjustable regulator TA 1502 TA
Oil pump pickup 20IS2 Melling
Do a search on oil pump setup. Earl Brown did a write-up on blueprinting the pump. You'll need to drink lots of beer to follow his instructions, but It is well worth the effort.
Here is a quick list of the parts I use:
Description Part # Manufacturer
Oil pump kit K20I Melling
Oil pump shim kit TA-1704 TA
Oil pump wear plate 224-518TP Speed Pro
Adjustable regulator TA 1502 TA
Oil pump pickup 20IS2 Melling
turbodave231
Moderator
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I've used HV pumps when the customer insists........but I'd never use one on my own engine.............. or if I had a choice.
A properly setup (standard length gears) oil pump with the proper bearing clearances work great every time. I've done this on stock block, S1 and S2 builds.
I've seen guys set these engines up with loose bearing clearances (like a SBC) and HV pumps. I've seen the same guys eat distributor gears and burn up #5 and #6 rod bearings.
A properly setup (standard length gears) oil pump with the proper bearing clearances work great every time. I've done this on stock block, S1 and S2 builds.
I've seen guys set these engines up with loose bearing clearances (like a SBC) and HV pumps. I've seen the same guys eat distributor gears and burn up #5 and #6 rod bearings.
I agree and don't use them myself.
But I had the chance to pick RC's brian on this issue and he's one smart MOFO. .002-.0025 and a high HP build he likes them and also 5w-30 only. Also on a cover with some wear on the pocket. He's a bit more experienced than most on this forum.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2006
I run a hv oil pump. And a composite timing gear. Have a few thousand miles on it. Pulled the cam sensor multiple times expecting to see some wear. Still looks new.
You know what gets me, all theses complaints about over stressing the oil pump drive but I bet everyone has the heaviest spring in the bypass.
The oil pump is under maximum stress on cold starts. When the oil is cold and generally heavier the oil bypass has to let oil trough because the filter cant flow. Oil pressure has to overcome the spring to open the valve and let oil bypass the filter. When you cold start a engine, the oil pressure goes right to the the bypass spring pressure. This is when the the pumps drives are stressed more than any other time!
Either pump set up the right way will work fine.
Rick
You know what gets me, all theses complaints about over stressing the oil pump drive but I bet everyone has the heaviest spring in the bypass.
The oil pump is under maximum stress on cold starts. When the oil is cold and generally heavier the oil bypass has to let oil trough because the filter cant flow. Oil pressure has to overcome the spring to open the valve and let oil bypass the filter. When you cold start a engine, the oil pressure goes right to the the bypass spring pressure. This is when the the pumps drives are stressed more than any other time!
Either pump set up the right way will work fine.
Rick
turbodave231
Moderator
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I think we may have a terminology problem here. Bypass vs. Regulator.
The oil filter bypass is not adjustable, not replaceable and does not affect oil pressure in any way. it is built into the oil filter adapter. It opens when the pressure delta across the filter is high (cold oil or restricted filter). When it opens, it feeds unfiltered oil into the engine.
In the past, I have removed the filter bypass and plugged it. The Buick Motorsports manual talks about this modification on page 114. I don't recommend it.......you run the risk of a pressure spike on a cold start that will collapse the filter element and dump lots of oil on the ground. Been there and done that.....but it insures that all oil going in the engine is filtered.
The Pressure Regulator valve and spring ( replaceable and tuneable) is what controls the maximum oil pressure. It opens above the set point to dump oil back to the pump inlet.
I tailor the Pressure Regulator spring pressure to get 55-60 psi when I'm priming the pump with a drill motor. That's why I listed the TA adjustable PR cap in the list above. I start with a lighter spring and add pressure by compressing the spring. After the engine has been broke in, I watch maximum oil pressure hot and then readjust the regulator spring pressure as necessary.
The oil filter bypass is not adjustable, not replaceable and does not affect oil pressure in any way. it is built into the oil filter adapter. It opens when the pressure delta across the filter is high (cold oil or restricted filter). When it opens, it feeds unfiltered oil into the engine.
In the past, I have removed the filter bypass and plugged it. The Buick Motorsports manual talks about this modification on page 114. I don't recommend it.......you run the risk of a pressure spike on a cold start that will collapse the filter element and dump lots of oil on the ground. Been there and done that.....but it insures that all oil going in the engine is filtered.
The Pressure Regulator valve and spring ( replaceable and tuneable) is what controls the maximum oil pressure. It opens above the set point to dump oil back to the pump inlet.
I tailor the Pressure Regulator spring pressure to get 55-60 psi when I'm priming the pump with a drill motor. That's why I listed the TA adjustable PR cap in the list above. I start with a lighter spring and add pressure by compressing the spring. After the engine has been broke in, I watch maximum oil pressure hot and then readjust the regulator spring pressure as necessary.
- Joined
- May 26, 2001
I have discussed oil pumps with RC and respect his knowledge and experience, but his "performance" builds are not at the higher HP levels that Dave R and others, including myself, participate and we have much more personal use with engine oiling at that power and RPM level.
In our experience with engines up to 1000 HP, we find the stock length gears more than adequate in oil supply when the cover and block is also properly prepared.
Since I have well over 1000 passes on one of my race engines and a few freshens, never has a bearing shown any signs of oil starvation, and also I never use any oil as low a 5w.
Not sure what you mean by "some wear on the pocket" as this is the most critical tolerance on building oil pressure in the pump? I would be concerned if it is worn too much.
Another factor not mentioned is "how is the engine/car used".
In a drag car, we only need oil flow and pressure for 10 seconds or less, other conditions such as sustained max or high RPM for much longer durations and may have different requirements oil weight/type or oil flow?
turbo nasty
Turbo Dojo / MNTR
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2001
Good points here in the thread.
I steer away from HV pumps and dont feel they are needed as well. In a nutshell the cam sensor turns the oil pump and the cam sensor is driven by the cam shaft.
What happens with a HV pump is the gears are longer and are going to take more to turn....that extra umpf needed to rotate the pump gears gets transferred up to the cam shaft and causes it to ride harder against the front cam bearing and is unneeded wear.
I will say that if you order a oil pump kit to check the gears close because the Melling kits dont have any packing to protect the gears hitting each other and one will typically be knicked up. In my current engine I couldnt get a clean set in one kit so I ordered a few before I could piece together a clean set.
IMO dont get wrapped in high oil psi at idle especially when its hot. As mentioned you have a regulator spring that you can put in and that changes MAX oil psi.
Changing the regulator spring has NOTHING to do with idle psi.
Very normal to have around 15ish psi on a fully heat soaked engine idling in gear with 10w40 and I have seen it there with 20w50. Now these numbers are with it HOT like after a beating, extended pull, idling in summer traffic, etc.
The norm "range" is 12-25 in gear heat soaked idling in gear IMO.
The oil psi should come up instantly as you break idle and as rpm increases. I like to see more than 10 psi per 1k rpm increase.
Thank you everyone . I have a smaller turbo garret 49 , not looking for crazy power just a fun reliable street car . Guys around me that I respect in the car world give me there input ,but they don't have turbo cars so when they give me advice I put it against what everyone on here says. Majority of time turbo buick wins lol. Wiped a cam on a 100k motor doing a rebuild so just getting some advice so I don't have problems after it goes together. Any suggestions . Would help
