new mods=SLOWER?

[BADazzBUICK]

Ok, heres the story. Last year my car had a ta61,3'dp,24rowSLIC,alky,3000 vig LU,and all the other little stuff.LAST YEAR, the car went 1.77 60ft, 7.51/8@93 and 11.72@114 at 22# boost with bfg drag radials. This year i went and got a cpt61bb,and mickey thompson drag radials.I been to the track a few times and the best mph i got was 110. The times this year are:1.62 60ft,7.5 1/8 @89 and 11.94 @110.@ 25# boost?? The only other thing I changed was the stock maf to a ls1 and translater.the 02s were 770ish,I crossed the line at 5200rpms(i know because the shift light was coming on) and the 2-3 shift I only dropped 2-300 rpms. I contacted Dusty and got a 10" lock up on its way.I hope that brings it back to life.Ive been checking for exhaust leaks,cant find any.Im starting to think this moter is getting tired(75k). Ive put new valve springs and had the driver side header welded,any ideas are appreciated. Can anyone try to explain what went wrong?? ThanX.

 

[87NAT]

The new Dual Ball Bearing turbos dont like alot of stall. I went 11.80's@110.6 with my DBB6776 and a 3400 10". After installing one of Dustys 2800 10"s it went 11.20@118.7. And its still slipping about 8-10%. The converter will make or break your combo.

 

[BADazzBUICK]

That makes me feel better!! I think Dusty sent me a 10" 2400 LU. I will be heading to the track saturday to try it again.

 

[TurboDave]

Not so sure about that. You stated you have a LU converter. Assuming you're locking sometime in 3rd gear you shouldn't have lost so much mph.

The gains you picked up are all in the 60' and first 1/8 ET/MPH.

The losses you suffered were all in the last 1/8th. Big time lost.
You also switched over to an LS1 MAF and Translator, which is a big tuning change. If you didn't retune to compensate for your changes, your losses are not surprising.
At the boost levels you're running 770 on the NBO2 sounds pretty rich. What were your typical readings before? I know when I was running at the track, my NBO2 numbers were quite a bit lower than that. Now that I have a WBO2 to keep an eye on things I now know how incredibly rich NBO2 numbers in the 770-780 range are!! Something like mid 10:1 AFR

I'm thinking you just have some more tuning to do, to pick up the top 1/8 again. You REALLY need a WBO2!!!!!!

 

[BADazzBUICK]

WB is def on the list!! My vig is a single disc so I dont lock it at the track. I didnt lock it last year either. I know that ls1 maf has something to do with it,I started pulling a lil fuel at a time to get the o2s down from 800ish, and started adding a lil timing(TTchip)at 25# boost. I also had a rjc boost controler on but took it off when I blew one of the hoses on it DURING A TRACK PASS a month ago and the boost went to zero and the alky shut off because it didnt see 10# and there went the head gasket#3 by the time I caught what was going on by the 1/8, TOO LATE. My 02s should be around 750 with the NB?

 

[87NAT]

WB is def on the list!! My vig is a single disc so I dont lock it at the track. I didnt lock it last year either. I know that ls1 maf has something to do with it,I started pulling a lil fuel at a time to get the o2s down from 800ish, and started adding a lil timing(TTchip)at 25# boost. I also had a rjc boost controler on but took it off when I blew one of the hoses on it DURING A TRACK PASS a month ago and the boost went to zero and the alky shut off because it didnt see 10# and there went the head gasket#3 by the time I caught what was going on by the 1/8, TOO LATE. My 02s should be around 750 with the NB?

Your 02 counts are on a car by car basis. My car likes low 700's some cars like mid to high 700's. You have to see what works best for YOUR combo. You have to go out and beat on the car at the track. The street and laptop tuning wont always get you the desired results. Only those clocks at the track will tell you if your tune is on or not.

 

[BADazzBUICK]

I forgot that I also(over the winter) added 60lb injectors with the alky chip,last year I had a TT street chip and 43lbs inj. with alky.I know that I have a lot of tuning to do. Hopefully saturday morning with the new PTC,I WILL be the 1st one in line to BEAT on the car this is what Im gonna start with: 43lbs fuel pressure , 21lbs of boost,23/21 timing,Razors alky on 6(base settings).

1st-up boost 1# at a time till I see knock,then back off boost 1#

2nd-pull fuel till I see knock,then add a lil.(how much should I pull at a time?)

3rd- add timing,should I watch for o2s on this with knock also?

does that sound about right?

 

[streetknight]

Good luck, subscribing, cause I need some tuning help too

 

[87NAT]

I forgot that I also(over the winter) added 60lb injectors with the alky chip,last year I had a TT street chip and 43lbs inj. with alky.I know that I have a lot of tuning to do. Hopefully saturday morning with the new PTC,I WILL be the 1st one in line to BEAT on the car this is what Im gonna start with: 43lbs fuel pressure , 21lbs of boost,23/21 timing,Razors alky on 6(base settings).

1st-up boost 1# at a time till I see knock,then back off boost 1#

2nd-pull fuel till I see knock,then add a lil.(how much should I pull at a time?)

3rd- add timing,should I watch for o2s on this with knock also?

does that sound about right?

Leave the 3/4 timing at 21 degrees. Add a degree or two in 1/2 gear if you want. High Boost+Low timing= a motor that will stay together longer. Higher timing in 1/2 will get the car going but once it under the highest load in third gear you dont want crazy timing. Let the higher boost do the work. If you see knock add a little alky not fuel. Trim the fuel based on air/fuel numbers. The alky is the knock suppressor.

I usually add/subtract 1% at a time. 1% on TT chips is equal to 1 lb. of FP. I would leave the TT chip at default and start at the 21-22 psi of boost and work on getting the car to sixty foot. Do all of your tuning in third gear. Thats where the true knock will rear its head.

 

[daves87gn]

Good luck, subscribing, cause I need some tuning help too

same here

 

[forcefed3.8's]

I would be checking the trans. Even last year you were only gaining 19mph in the last 1/8th. My car gained 26 to 28 in the last 1/8 with that converter, and dropped 1,000rpms on shift, running 125mph.
As far as NB O2, my car was reading 700 on the scanmaster, and it was at 12.4 on a wideband. My brothers car was showing 79x's to 800 and the wideband was at 11.2 to 11.3 the whole run. Each sensor shows different, as well as scan tools. This is why a wideband is a must.
I would agree a tighter converter would work better with the BB, but I don't think it will be the magic piece of the puzzle. IMO, low 11's, very high 10's, 0 pump Vigilante's unlocked aren't that bad. At low 10's around 130mph, lockup sounds like another gear.

 

[BADazzBUICK]

I would be checking the trans. Even last year you were only gaining 19mph in the last 1/8th. My car gained 26 to 28 in the last 1/8 with that converter, and dropped 1,000rpms on shift, running 125mph.
As far as NB O2, my car was reading 700 on the scanmaster, and it was at 12.4 on a wideband. My brothers car was showing 79x's to 800 and the wideband was at 11.2 to 11.3 the whole run. Each sensor shows different, as well as scan tools. This is why a wideband is a must.
I would agree a tighter converter would work better with the BB, but I don't think it will be the magic piece of the puzzle. IMO, low 11's, very high 10's, 0 pump Vigilante's unlocked aren't that bad. At low 10's around 130mph, lockup sounds like another gear.

So I should see around 25 mph on the back half? After this saturday,if my mph dont go up,looks like Ill be going to Vinces. When I put the turbo,60lbs inj,3.5 maf on this year,I had to adjust the detent cable back a click to get the firmness back.The guy that did it said the loose converter was making the 1-2 ,2-3 shifts sloppy. Last year with the journal bearing it was fine.But like you said it still only picked up 19mph last year to. Prolly is the tranny

 

[forcefed3.8's]

You should see around 23. Are you still running alky? I would like to see a run on good gas and a non alky chip. You might be killing it with alky, too much too soon.

 

[forcefed3.8's]

5200rpms and 110mph with a 26" tire is just under 7% slip, which isn't that bad for an unlocked, lockup style converter. Everyone is quick to point fingers at the converter, but IMO, the Vigilante is one of the best driving converters on the market. On the street, you can't tell it has a high stall in it.

 

[BADazzBUICK]

You should see around 23. Are you still running alky? I would like to see a run on good gas and a non alky chip. You might be killing it with alky, too much too soon.

Yes,still running alky.I removed the volt booster,(Razor said it might be flooding the alky down low)that didnt show anything in the timeslips though. Could I use race gas instead of the alky with the alky chip?

 

[XLR8]

Could I use race gas instead of the alky with the alky chip?

I think that you will be lean since the injector duty cycle is lower with an alky chip since alky is taking the place of some of the gasoline.

 

[Turbo6Smackdown]

Not so sure about that. You stated you have a LU converter. Assuming you're locking sometime in 3rd gear you shouldn't have lost so much mph.

The gains you picked up are all in the 60' and first 1/8 ET/MPH.

The losses you suffered were all in the last 1/8th. Big time lost.
You also switched over to an LS1 MAF and Translator, which is a big tuning change. If you didn't retune to compensate for your changes, your losses are not surprising.
At the boost levels you're running 770 on the NBO2 sounds pretty rich. What were your typical readings before? I know when I was running at the track, my NBO2 numbers were quite a bit lower than that. Now that I have a WBO2 to keep an eye on things I now know how incredibly rich NBO2 numbers in the 770-780 range are!! Something like mid 10:1 AFR

I'm thinking you just have some more tuning to do, to pick up the top 1/8 again. You REALLY need a WBO2!!!!!!

"The sole function that the oem sensor performs is to signal the ecm if the exhaust gas passing over the sensor is either rich or lean with the stochiometric A/F point of 14.7 being the dividing line. It simply acts as a switch that is used to correct fueling at part throttle to optimize mileage and emissions. It is NOT used to determine fueling at wide open throttle.
Not only is the sensor extremely insensitive on either side of stochiometric, it is also affected by exhaust gas temperature. As the sensor heats or cools, its output voltage changes even if the A/F ratio does not.
Trying to use the output voltage of the stock sensor to determine an optimum A/F ratio for a given car is essentially a futile exercise due to the very nature of the sensor and the changes that may be incurred with temperature swings.
When someone says that the fueling should be adjusted to some magic number such as 765 mv, the above curve will show the futility of that effort. 765 mv might be anything from an air fuel ration of 14 to 1 to 12 to 1, or even broader depending upon the individual combination, the exhaust gas temperature, and the condition of the sensor, etc.
Note that when someone says the O2s should be 800 or whatever other magic number they like, they are referring to wide open throttle O2s. My experience has shown that Alky Injection has allowed me to safely run lower O2's on the oem sensor.
My best advice is to buy a wideband O2 in order to obtain meaningful air/fuel ratios for consistent tuning as using the factory O2s for tuning is simply a meaningless exercise except in the very broadest sense."

A quote from Gnttype.org.

 

[TurboDave]

"The sole function that the oem sensor performs is to signal the ecm if the exhaust gas passing over the sensor is either rich or lean with the stochiometric A/F point of 14.7 being the dividing line. It simply acts as a switch that is used to correct fueling at part throttle to optimize mileage and emissions. It is NOT used to determine fueling at wide open throttle.
Not only is the sensor extremely insensitive on either side of stochiometric, it is also affected by exhaust gas temperature. As the sensor heats or cools, its output voltage changes even if the A/F ratio does not.
Trying to use the output voltage of the stock sensor to determine an optimum A/F ratio for a given car is essentially a futile exercise due to the very nature of the sensor and the changes that may be incurred with temperature swings.
When someone says that the fueling should be adjusted to some magic number such as 765 mv, the above curve will show the futility of that effort. 765 mv might be anything from an air fuel ration of 14 to 1 to 12 to 1, or even broader depending upon the individual combination, the exhaust gas temperature, and the condition of the sensor, etc.
Note that when someone says the O2s should be 800 or whatever other magic number they like, they are referring to wide open throttle O2s. My experience has shown that Alky Injection has allowed me to safely run lower O2's on the oem sensor.
My best advice is to buy a wideband O2 in order to obtain meaningful air/fuel ratios for consistent tuning as using the factory O2s for tuning is simply a meaningless exercise except in the very broadest sense."

A quote from Gnttype.org.

Nice quote, and I know all about all that.

I was trying to speak in generalities since it's the only method of measure the OP had was his NB. Unfortunately a VAST majority of TR folks are still using the NB as a sole method of WOT tuning. I did too, until a little over a year ago when I got my WB. Sensor to sensor there will be differences, but since I carefully compare both my WB and NB everytime I log a run, I've learned there are repeatable trends (on mine) and seems to be stable since I don't polute the NB with anything.

 

[BADazzBUICK]

Ive been looking into wide bands and summit sells one thats a kit ($250.00) and there 25 mins from my house but its a summit brand with dig gauge.Would this be ok to use or should I get a innovative lm1? Is there a diff? There both ruffly the same price.I have a friend with a lc1 but no gauge,can I use any gauge with that?

 

[TurboDave]

You can get the entire LC1 kit with gauge (XD16) here:

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