New GN Owner Looking for Build Comments/Advice

[Raeban]

Hi all

I've owned my 87 GN for a couple of weeks now and when I am not tweaking on the car I am reading on the forums. I read the recipes on another site but they seem a little dated and I am hoping for some more advice.

So far I have compiled a list of items and I would love to get some advice to make sure I won't inadvertantly buy something stupid or have to re-upgrade again to meet my goals. My three main goals are listed in order of importance below. Thanks in advance for helping a newbie out, and when I get more seasoned I will try to return the favor!

Goals in order of importance:
1-High elevens on radials\low 11's on DOT's (might take me a year or so for this)
2-No major sacrifices to reliability/streetability outside the normal mod at your own risk...
3-20 mpg so I can cruise in my new dream car!

What I have:
87 GN w/65k miles, drivetrain solid, no real issues
Hotwired Walbro 340
Hooker Catback w/testpipe
Adjustable regulator
LC1 Wideband
Boost Gauge
Hypertech Chip (original owner installed this in 1988)

What's next
Valve Springs
Power Plate
MAFT Pro/Harness/IAT Relocation/Chip/3 Bar MAP to run speed density
60#/hr injectors (I'll buy this at the same time as the chip/MAFT Pro)
Cold Air Intake
Figure out how to make MAFT Pro control stock wastegate solenoid or buy the high boost?
Passenger Rear Air Bag
Rear Control Arms
3" THDP
Razor Alky Kit

Next Year:
Trans build
Converter
Turbo (Still not sure what size)
Champion Iron Heads/Cam/Port matched intake
FMIC if I need it

So can I get close to my goals listed above with some tuning? I have messed with turbo cars before but never spent much time tuning em. I am not afraid of the challenge of working with the MAFT Pro and I actually think I will have fun running through iterations trying to tune it. I am a little unsure about speed density but from what I have read I can always go to a high flow MAF and still use the pro. Also, I was hoping to use the datalogging software that comes with the MAFT Pro but I have read it can be a pain. Is the Power Logger way easier and worth the money? Is a scanmaster worth the extra cost as well?

Thanks!

 

[ChristianKustom]

Hey there partner. My name is John and I wanted to give you a few answers you were looking for. First off you are not going to come close to 11's with your current set up. You're realistically looking at 13's to 12's. My suggestion would be to tune and dial in what you have. If not then you will have a bag of worms down the line you won't know where it came from. Once you have it dialed in good upgrade to 60lbs precision injectors from Eric at TurboTweek. Have him make you a chip and have him tune it to your set up. By this point some spring cleaning is needed. Change your o2 sensor, get a good set of non platinum Autolite 23 plugs and change to a PH52 oils filter. Check your timing and A/F ratio's. Fuel pressure is very important too. Get an Accufab AFPR and start off with a base fuel psi of 43PSI w/ vac off. Should be aprox. 38PSI w/ vac on.

Now is a good time to tell you to trash that MAF you have. Get a LS1 with the MAFT. Set pins- first 3 up and 4th down. Leave the two nobs to the right at 0. This will be a HUGE improvement. Next get a 3" exhaust down pipe and no bigger. I forgot to mention to either delete or gut out the cat. Keep the internal WG and a turbo upgrade would be a good idea by this point. Tune it and dial it in. Make for certain your fuel pressure is good. 14.7 at cruise and for mine 11.0 to 10.9 at WOT is ideal. At least it is great for mine. I am running a cam and methanol injection in mine and love it. While all this is going on don't forget to get a stall converter. A 2800 with a lock up would be good for you. Change the TCC switch. It will help with your times at the track. Oh and by the way a good turbo to buy would be either a Precision 4431 turbo or a Turbonetics 49 trim turbo.

Other little things you will need to do to help get you to your 11 second would be to get rid of all your emissions equipment, get an aluminum distribution block. By pass the breather tube. Cap it off and put a breather on the end. That way heat and oil are not being sucked up. Get rid of those clunky and very heavy front and rear bumpers. Get fiberglass ones. You can gain over a 10th of a second be doing this. Get rid of that metal cold pipe and go with an aluminum pipe. Also some water wetter is a good idea for the cooling system to keep the temps down by 20+ degree's. It's a good idea to set your timing/fuel down by 10% on 1st and 2nd gears and +10% in 3rd gear. Again watch your A/F ratio's. Delete the coolant lines going to your TB. It will keep your TB cooler. Make sure your TPS is reading correctly. I hope this isn't too much for you.

Lastly get a scanmaster..I will say it again "GET A SCANMASTER". Talk to brian at GBodyparts.com tell him John from ChristianKustomz sent you. A 3" downpipe would be a good idea now too.by this point 11's are possible. ALKY makes a methanol injection kit that's amazing. That will put you over the top and get you to your desired goals. Talk to Julio at ALKY. Tell him I sent you.

If you need help let me know. If you need the work done I can do the work for you. I own ChristianKustomz Automotive & Performance Tuning and I work on these cars often. Those are a good start. Oh and a RJC boost controller is needed. That's it. Good luck and let me know if there is anything alse I can help you with.

 

[Raeban]

Thanks for the reply.

Currently I have an accufab regulator set at 42 psi. This is giving me AF ratio of 11.2 at WOT

I am running AC Delco R43TS plugs atm, gapped at 0.035
Breather mod to prevent oil from entering the intercooler will be done this week.

The 3" downpipe from Gbodyparts is the one I was looking at, it looks like a really nice piece

All maintenance has been completed, and the spring cleaning stuff will be finished this week as well. I was wondering if deleting the coolant lines to the TB was worth it, looks like it is, so I will add that as well.

As far as removing the bumpers and reducing the weight I wouldn't go that far (I'd rather be slower), in some sense that pushes me further from the street car that I am looking for and more into the special use type car.

Oh and for clarification, I meant 11's with all the modifications I listed above, not what I currently have as I have been doing maintenance and getting the fuel system right since that seemed to be the reliable approach.

I should have mentioned I am no stranger to going fast (term relative of course) and have built a variety of engines, restorations, race cars, 4wd's etc. I am just new to GN's and want to map my build efficiently.

I appreciate your insight and would welcome more. Thanks!

 

[MY T FAST]

with what you currently have: hi 12's if the stars are in line
with your "what's next": with sticky tires, 11's should be relatively easy with some tuning.
with your "next year": you'll be deeeeeeep in the 11's.

IMO: i'd get alky/valve springs/timing chain right now, i'd ditch your hypertech chip and call eric at Turbotweak, he'll set you up. those 2 alone and you'll be fine deep into the 12's, best bang for your buck (alkycontrol) for these cars!!!!

PS: its refreshing to see a self proclaimed newb doing things in the right time/order because of the search function nice work!

 

[Tom Tom Turbo]

Do it once and do it right! If it's possible, get the injectors, turbo, and converter all at once. I can't tell you how many times people buy a converter and then find out it's not a good match for their new turbo.

Also, stick with a Precision stock location IC, it's been into the 9's regularly and the FMIC is only going to cause you cooling issues if you cruise the car often.

Most importantly, have fun doing it! Get friends or family to help, or even be there just to share in the frustration, it's no fun building these cars alone.

 

[1fast6]

Your ''what's next'' looks pretty good. I would add a timing chain for sure. A turbo would also be great at this point if your funds are there.

 

[Grumpy]

Please don't run fiberglass bumpers on your STREET car :redface: a minor accident will cost you a LOT of $$$$$.. Use aluminum supports from a non GN car if weight matters that much to ya.

 

[turbo39151]

x2 on the timing chain and scanmaster (I can't fool with a laptop while I'm driving)

I think you're on the right track. It's all about having a solid foundation first.
Simple stuff like weight reduction is cheap and easy to do as well. I wouldn't go to FG bumpers but I'd make sure that my supports were aluminum and not steel, get rid of the spare tire and jack- I think that's an extra 50 lbs, Also look at the rims... I just swapped my stock steel GN rims for the Aluminum GTA rims... With similar tires mounted the Gn rims weighed 56.5 lbs a piece and the GTA's weighed 40.5 each. You can also look at light weight pulley (not under drive) RJCRacing The leaders in Buick Performance and Innovation

Then you can add the goodies.

Good Luck.

 

[TR Custom Parts]

Scanmaster - you already have the wideband 02, this works great in concert with the SM and the PL.

Powerlogger - you will need a laptop, can get some pretty decent refurbed units on ebay for around $200 I have had good luck with Blair Technologies on ebay

#60 injectors and TurboTweak 6.0 chip, TT also has a speed density chip but not sure if you really want to go that route or not. Translator with a LT1 or LS1 MAF sensor might be a bit easier for you.

Alkycontrol meth kit

Some good drag radials are a must at the least or you are just wasting your time.

I don't think I would run glass bumpers on the street. You can always get the aluminum bumper inserts to lighten things up, a hollow front sway bar, remove the sound deadening material under the rear seat. Aftermarket wheels will save a lot of weight too. Stock GN wheels weigh in around 28 lbs.

Oh! And welcome to the board.

 

[Dino1]

First you have to ask yourself, how deep are my pockets? then come up with a plan and stick to it. Parts for these cars have a very thin coating of Platinum on them, if you look real hard you can almost see it. Before you know it you will have in the car what you spent to buy it. Set a realistic goal that fits your exspectations, do your homework and don't get carried away. It is to easy to get totally wrapped up in it, is spending your kids inheritance on your car what you really want to do?

 

[Raeban]

IMO: i'd get alky/valve springs/timing chain right now, i'd ditch your hypertech chip and call eric at Turbotweak, he'll set you up. those 2 alone and you'll be fine deep into the 12's, best bang for your buck (alkycontrol) for these cars!!!!

I looked at the TurboTweak and injector combo and it is very tempting. My stubborn side still wants me to learn to use the MAFT Pro, partly the challenge, partly the engineer in me. Still undecided though. If I don't do the MAFT Pro I might go to the translator gen2 as I will need a translator eventually anyway.

PS: its refreshing to see a self proclaimed newb doing things in the right time/order because of the search function nice work!

Thanks, I've built a bunch of stuff in the past and learned the hard way. A little humility and a lot of research can go a long way. And so far there are tons of willing people with lots of knowledge to share!

Please don't run fiberglass bumpers on your STREET car :redface: a minor accident will cost you a LOT of $$$$$.. Use aluminum supports from a non GN car if weight matters that much to ya.

I couldn't agree more.

Do it once and do it right! If it's possible, get the injectors, turbo, and converter all at once. I can't tell you how many times people buy a converter and then find out it's not a good match for their new turbo.

I am looking to do the injectors early to get rid of the 24 year old ones. I will wait till the last dieing minute to get the converter when I have absolutely decided on the turbo.

Also, stick with a Precision stock location IC, it's been into the 9's regularly and the FMIC is only going to cause you cooling issues if you cruise the car often.

Thanks for that insight. I definitely want the AC to continue to blow freezing cold and not watch temp gauges while driving around town..see Big Block Dodge PU in sig lol.

Your ''what's next'' looks pretty good. I would add a timing chain for sure. A turbo would also be great at this point if your funds are there.

Hmm, timing chain early seems to be a theme, I was hoping to hold out until the cam swap. Is this still worth the risk or should I just get it out out ASAP?

x2 on the timing chain and scanmaster (I can't fool with a laptop while I'm driving)

I think you're on the right track. It's all about having a solid foundation first.
Simple stuff like weight reduction is cheap and easy to do as well. I wouldn't go to FG bumpers but I'd make sure that my supports were aluminum and not steel, get rid of the spare tire and jack- I think that's an extra 50 lbs, Also look at the rims... I just swapped my stock steel GN rims for the Aluminum GTA rims... With similar tires mounted the Gn rims weighed 56.5 lbs a piece and the GTA's weighed 40.5 each. You can also look at light weight pulley (not under drive) RJCRacing The leaders in Buick Performance and Innovation

Ya, my fourth unlisted goal is to start taking this car to shows. I like the look ]of the GNX wheels, but I will need to repaint this car first. Probably after the turbo next year. And the RJC pulleys look amazing!

Scanmaster - you already have the wideband 02, this works great in concert with the SM and the PL.

Powerlogger - you will need a laptop, can get some pretty decent refurbed units on ebay for around $200 I have had good luck with Blair Technologies on ebay

I have a lap top already. Is the scan master still worth it with the power logger?

#60 injectors and TurboTweak 6.0 chip, TT also has a speed density chip but not sure if you really want to go that route or not. Translator with a LT1 or LS1 MAF sensor might be a bit easier for you.

I was thinking of seeing if I like the speed density first and if I found it to be too difficult I would run an LT1 and come back to it later.

First you have to ask yourself, how deep are my pockets? then come up with a plan and stick to it. Parts for these cars have a very thin coating of Platinum on them, if you look real hard you can almost see it. Before you know it you will have in the car what you spent to buy it. Set a realistic goal that fits your exspectations, do your homework and don't get carried away. It is to easy to get totally wrapped up in it, is spending your kids inheritance on your car what you really want to do?

Lol, every project I start I ask myself the same thing. I got a good price on this car, and in a couple years I am looking to curb my spending at about 24K total. Here's to hoping I come under budget for the first time!

And thanks to all for your help. Any more info is always welcome!

 

[TurboDave]

I looked at the TurboTweak and injector combo and it is very tempting. My stubborn side still wants me to learn to use the MAFT Pro, partly the challenge, partly the engineer in me. Still undecided though. If I don't do the MAFT Pro I might go to the translator gen2 as I will need a translator eventually anyway.



Thanks, I've built a bunch of stuff in the past and learned the hard way. A little humility and a lot of research can go a long way. And so far there are tons of willing people with lots of knowledge to share!



I couldn't agree more.



I am looking to do the injectors early to get rid of the 24 year old ones. I will wait till the last dieing minute to get the converter when I have absolutely decided on the turbo.


Thanks for that insight. I definitely want the AC to continue to blow freezing cold and not watch temp gauges while driving around town..see Big Block Dodge PU in sig lol.




Hmm, timing chain early seems to be a theme, I was hoping to hold out until the cam swap. Is this still worth the risk or should I just get it out out ASAP?


Ya, my fourth unlisted goal is to start taking this car to shows. I like the look ]of the GNX wheels, but I will need to repaint this car first. Probably after the turbo next year. And the RJC pulleys look amazing!





I have a lap top already. Is the scan master still worth it with the power logger?


I was thinking of seeing if I like the speed density first and if I found it to be too difficult I would run an LT1 and come back to it later.




Lol, every project I start I ask myself the same thing. I got a good price on this car, and in a couple years I am looking to curb my spending at about 24K total. Here's to hoping I come under budget for the first time!

And thanks to all for your help. Any more info is always welcome!

There's nothing wrong with wanting to run the Translator Pro, there are a lot of us doing so. A lot of folks have been intimidated by it, and will try and talk you into something much simpler. But if you're willing to try, it's not that difficult to run it and play around with tuning.

It really does require the use of an Extender Pro chip to run it properly though. Even though Erik's turbo tweak chips work great in many instances, this is one place you'll want to run Bob's matching Extender Pro chip. If not, then you've wasted a lot of money on the Translator Pro.

If you don't do too many crazy changes, the Translator Pro will work pretty near great right out of the box so-to-speak.

You can start out using it as a regular translator and run a good LS1 MAF with it. Once you get comfortable with some of the may tuning aids it has, you can remove the maf, make a couple changes and you'll be running speed denesity in not time, or stay maf'd, which ever tune you like better.

As for your comment on having the translator pro run your stock wastegate solenoid, it's perfectly do-able!! In fact I run two stock solenoids in parallel, and use the pro to control them using the stock wiring and it works perfectly. Two parallel solenoids gives a nice WIDE range of adjustability!!

As for a mid 11 second combo, I did it with...... Bone stock long block, MSD-50's, TE-44 turbo, GOOD front mount intercooler, and drag radials. Translator and LS1 MAF(no translator pro back then) That's it.....

Today, even though I no longer race the car, I run the pro because I love to tinker, and prove to the doubters that speed density can be made as streetable and driveable and a stocker.

 

[Raeban]

Thanks Dave

A few questions-

1. I was kicking around the idea of using the Maft Pro on speed density for a week or so on the stock MAF sensor/intake and if I liked it well enough buying a cold air intake for MAFless. If speed density didn't go over well at first I was going to buy an LT1 sensor and a cold air kit and play until I wanted to tinker later. What are your thoughts?

I also noticed in your post you mentioned an LS1 sensor. Since I don't have a LT1/LS1 MAF sensor right now or a cold air kit is that the better choice over the LT1's?

2. I think I read that the Translator Pro and gen 2 have timing control, so this would be the reason for using the extender pro chip right?

3. Does the plug and play harness from Casper's for the Pro work with the gen 2?

4. Would you recommend the power logger over the software that comes with the Pro?

Thanks

 

[TurboSlacker]

Your goals are similar to what I set out to build and have happily achieved. The only extra I went for was a winning show car at local events. My approach was to do a little bit every year which has kept the interest strong over the many years while in having maximum fun and budget friendly. Learning how to maintain, modify and tune myself has been rewarding and have received lots of help on this board and local turbo buicks enthusiasts.

It's certainly doable. See my signature for my mods. Yes, I've done it with stock heads as well which saved $.

Biggest performance values have been alky injection and drag radials.

Best wishes...I love your game plan!

 

[blackgn1]

Get Turbo Tweak to do you a chip. I wouldn't step into the Speed Density until you have some tuning experience. I see where you think it is a little complicated. Your thinking is sound right now.:biggrin: Keep it simple.

 

[TurboDave]

Thanks Dave

A few questions-

1. I was kicking around the idea of using the Maft Pro on speed density for a week or so on the stock MAF sensor/intake and if I liked it well enough buying a cold air intake for MAFless. If speed density didn't go over well at first I was going to buy an LT1 sensor and a cold air kit and play until I wanted to tinker later. What are your thoughts?

That would be less than ideal, the stock maf is restrictive enough without trying to run as described above.
Running speed density also requires the air temp sensor being moved to some place post turbo. I have mine in my up pipe, some place it in the upper plenum.

I also noticed in your post you mentioned an LS1 sensor. Since I don't have a LT1/LS1 MAF sensor right now or a cold air kit is that the better choice over the LT1's?

There's nothing wrong with the LT1. I far outflows the stock MAF, and the LS1 flows better than the LT1, and so on.

2. I think I read that the Translator Pro and gen 2 have timing control, so this would be the reason for using the extender pro chip right?

Yes, and there are other things in the pro that require the extender pro chip.

3. Does the plug and play harness from Casper's for the Pro work with the gen 2?

I believe they each have their own dedicated harness.

4. Would you recommend the power logger over the software that comes with the Pro?

Thanks

I actually use both. I use powerlogger for the logging functions, and I use Tuner Pro RT(comes with Translator Pro) for making quick easy changes to the pro's settings. I find it easier than paging up and down through the pro's menu screen.

 

[Raeban]

Dave

If I decide to go with an LS1 and the Pro will I still need to buy a 3 Bar MAP sensor right away or can it wait until I play with speed density/get alky kit?

I think I have decided to go with the Pro (my stubborn side) but with all the advice above I will likely run a MAF for now and go SD later.

I will also get the scanmaster and wait and see how I like the software that comes with the Pro before I buy the power logger.

Thanks to all for your input, I certainly learned a few things, and if I did't follow all of your advice it wasn't because I didn't trust it, but mostly do to being stubborn

 

[TurboDave]

Dave

If I decide to go with an LS1 and the Pro will I still need to buy a 3 Bar MAP sensor right away or can it wait until I play with speed density/get alky kit?

I think I have decided to go with the Pro (my stubborn side) but with all the advice above I will likely run a MAF for now and go SD later.

I will also get the scanmaster and wait and see how I like the software that comes with the Pro before I buy the power logger.

Thanks to all for your input, I certainly learned a few things, and if I did't follow all of your advice it wasn't because I didn't trust it, but mostly do to being stubborn

No, the 3 bar isn't required if you're running a MAF. It is however, something that you should have in the back of your mind. It's especially handy when you get a powerlogger for logging boost. And you'll need it when switching over to speed density if/when you decide to do that.

 

[Razor]

K.I.S.S.

Stock MAF, TT chip, new injectors, gap down the plugs, and follow the recipe that has worked for thousands of us.

Once you get the car into the 11's on the simple stuff.. then complicate yourself with the electronics.

Starting with electronics will bury you quick.. especially when trying to learn what the car does/is suppossed to do.

+1 on the scanmaster, chain, springs.. these are basics. You dont need an updated IC to get into the 11's. Let alone if you have the alcohol system.