NA engines

[futten]

whats horning mean??? any way to modify the venturis or boosters im not sure what theyre called

thanks for the link charlie but i want to use little or no chrome

 

[WarWagon]

whats horning mean??? any way to modify the venturis or boosters im not sure what theyre called

thanks for the link charlie but i want to use little or no chrome

lol out of context! haha

Futten the main body and butteryfly throttle plate can be upgragded to higher CFM specs and retain many of your original Holley 4160-390CFM parts.
BUT you said your using a Edelbrock performer intake manifold they have a carb flange made for their own carb or a Carter AFB. How do you like the idea of bolting an adaptor to this intake to use a Holley or Q-jet Carb?

 

[futten]

well there isent realy any room for an adapter the air cleaner is just about touching the underside of the hood

the carb fits the intake and they are both square bore just like the edelbrocks so there realy shouldent be any problems
and what do you men out of context? and about the venturis is there any way to modify them?

 

[charlief1]

There are ways to modify the venturies and it shouldn't be that hard. If you need a book on Holleys I can send you one with the frame parts.

As far as the pump, it's rebuildable and provides the best pressure overall for the carb and engine.

 

[futten]

yeah a book like that would be nice

 

[eastwoodad]

I'm sure Charlie will agree with me on this...

I just put an adapter plate on my Kenne Bell intake and ran a quadrajet. It had a Holley 600 vacuum secondary, then an Edelbrock 500, and now a later model quadrajet from a Buick 350. Best move I ever made on carburetion...it just works! It idles very well and pulled well....until it started spewing fuel out the top of the carb. Float stuck maybe? Any thoughts?


I could never get the Holley to perform well...unless it was over 3000rpm WOT. The Edelbrock was very good at idle and cruising...but wasnt enough once the secondaries opened...it would lean out. Could have tweaked it more, but wanted to try the good old Rochester.

 

[futten]

well there is realy no room for an adapter and why would i realy need an adapter the carb is square bore and so is the intake

 

[eastwoodad]

You have to use an adapter to convert to a spreadbore flange since the Edlebrock, Weiand, and Kenne Bell are squarebore. You should have plenty of room to run an adapter...probably a 1" or 2" riser as well.

 

[CamoDeafie]

when you say square bore, you mean all 4 holes are the same size?

 

[charlief1]

yeah a book like that would be nice

We can do the same thing I've done with Tor if you want. Find it and send it to me and I'll ship it with the frame parts so you can get it at the same time.:smile:

I'm sure Charlie will agree with me on this...

I just put an adapter plate on my Kenne Bell intake and ran a quadrajet. It had a Holley 600 vacuum secondary, then an Edelbrock 500, and now a later model quadrajet from a Buick 350. Best move I ever made on carburetion...it just works! It idles very well and pulled well....until it started spewing fuel out the top of the carb. Float stuck maybe? Any thoughts?

I could never get the Holley to perform well...unless it was over 3000rpm WOT. The Edelbrock was very good at idle and cruising...but wasnt enough once the secondaries opened...it would lean out. Could have tweaked it more, but wanted to try the good old Rochester.

I do agree with you Aaron. The quadrajet is a great choice if you are willing to learn about them. If not and you want the next best thing then get a Holley spread bore carb. The combination of a small primary and a large secondary allows for much better drivability over all and also helps with gas mileage.

As far as fuel coming out of the top your float may be bad or the needle may have hardened and isn't sealing right. With todays gas either could be the problem.

when you say square bore, you mean all 4 holes are the same size?

Yes.

 

[eastwoodad]

I do agree with you Aaron. The quadrajet is a great choice if you are willing to learn about them. If not and you want the next best thing then get a Holley spread bore carb. The combination of a small primary and a large secondary allows for much better drivability over all and also helps with gas mileage.

As far as fuel coming out of the top your float may be bad or the needle may have hardened and isn't sealing right. With todays gas either could be the problem.



Yes.

True...the carb hadn't been used in over 5 years, but went through it and did a real quick visual inspection and nothing seemed out of whack. However it took a LONG time to get it started as if the float was stuck, keeping the needle closed. Finally it started, but soon had a problem with the float sticking again, but this time with the needle open. Also notice a slight leak where the accelerator pump pushrod was...before it was even gushing. I'll check it out this weekend hopefully.

 

[dr_frankenstein]

the problem is that there is very poor understanding of how to properly carb a buick.

if its an edelbrock intake, stay under 500 cfms. preferibly a 450.

if it is a weiand, you either need a 390, or a 1050.

the buick has unusual intake pulses. especially NA. which tends to make carburators flow like there bigger than they really are. this is why NA buicks are hardly worth s hit, there not ideal configurations for NA use. Thus the reason a 1050 works so well on the signal plane, is because at the lower pressure drop acros the venturis will cause the 1050 to meter correctly as if it was a 600.

interesting huh?

theres a reason the only bad NA buicks are stage 2....

A.j.

 

[eastwoodad]

the problem is that there is very poor understanding of how to properly carb a buick.

if its an edelbrock intake, stay under 500 cfms. preferibly a 450.

if it is a weiand, you either need a 390, or a 1050.

the buick has unusual intake pulses. especially NA. which tends to make carburators flow like there bigger than they really are. this is why NA buicks are hardly worth s hit, there not ideal configurations for NA use. Thus the reason a 1050 works so well on the signal plane, is because at the lower pressure drop acros the venturis will cause the 1050 to meter correctly as if it was a 600.

interesting huh?

theres a reason the only bad NA buicks are stage 2....

A.j.

Very interesting...is this because of intake reversion, firing order, even vs odd fire....what exactly?

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Very interesting...is this because of intake reversion, firing order, even vs odd fire....what exactly?

mostly the even vs odd firing event

having the engine fire at every 120* actually tricks the engine into thinking its 60* block angle. this changes the dynamic relationship of the bore and stroke. Making it seem smaller than what it really is, and notably, hurts the motors ability to breathe, especially with our ****ty cast heads. the breathing signal is weak to begin with.

Thus, you see the stage 2s with gigantic heads and intakes. because the pressure wave is interupted by the next intake opening event, the vacuum across the manifold drops. Enhancing breathing across the board really helps.

However, at the cost of Low RPM velocity, thus the 1050 dominator comes into play, as it will meter correctly as these lower velocitys and pressures that are associated. most of the downsides of the heads are never taken into account, as almost all stage 2 NA motors were aimed at high rpm opperation.

thus a NA motor on a buick is such a crap shoot..... think hard.... huge stage heads and amazing internals to only make 500 - 600 hp? sounds like alot of work and money for so-so performance. and that was the top of the line, NA stage 2 Busch cup motors...

Smokey was no fool.... he knew what he was doing.... which is why he talked GM into pushing forward on the turbo system. He knew the boost was the answer for the power.

look hard at the 86/87 SFI stuff. Look at Smokeys notes. compare. and understand.

A.j.

 

[eastwoodad]

mostly the even vs odd firing event

having the engine fire at every 120* actually tricks the engine into thinking its 60* block angle. this changes the dynamic relationship of the bore and stroke. Making it seem smaller than what it really is, and notably, hurts the motors ability to breathe, especially with our ****ty cast heads. the breathing signal is weak to begin with.

Thus, you see the stage 2s with gigantic heads and intakes. because the pressure wave is interupted by the next intake opening event, the vacuum across the manifold drops. Enhancing breathing across the board really helps.

However, at the cost of Low RPM velocity, thus the 1050 dominator comes into play, as it will meter correctly as these lower velocitys and pressures that are associated. most of the downsides of the heads are never taken into account, as almost all stage 2 NA motors were aimed at high rpm opperation.

thus a NA motor on a buick is such a crap shoot..... think hard.... huge stage heads and amazing internals to only make 500 - 600 hp? sounds like alot of work and money for so-so performance. and that was the top of the line, NA stage 2 Busch cup motors...

Smokey was no fool.... he knew what he was doing.... which is why he talked GM into pushing forward on the turbo system. He knew the boost was the answer for the power.

look hard at the 86/87 SFI stuff. Look at Smokeys notes. compare. and understand.

A.j.

Makes very good sense...

What about nitrous? Obviously it will add power, but is it a viable alternative for boost? It's not the same theory of boost, but it is additional concentrated "atmostphere". Is it enough to overcome the junk breathing or will it suffer because it is not positive pressure?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is interesting talk...

 

[dr_frankenstein]

Makes very good sense...

What about nitrous? Obviously it will add power, but is it a viable alternative for boost? It's not the same theory of boost, but it is additional concentrated "atmostphere". Is it enough to overcome the junk breathing or will it suffer because it is not positive pressure?

Sorry for all the questions, but this is interesting talk...

no no... I love this stuff.... this is where all my expiriments come from... testing theorys and ideas.

Nitrous is the one ace card for the NA motors... sincle like you said, its chemical boost... which by all means should make the power provided your N2o mixtures are correct, but your still limited at how well the engine is going to breathe period.

heads hurt. particularly in NA form.

A.j.

 

[futten]

when you say square bore, you mean all 4 holes are the same size?

yeah all 4 are same size where a spread bore is small butterflys on the secondarys and big on the mains

and eastwoodad please trust me ther is NOOO room for an adapter i have to remove some of the hood bracing to stop the aircleaner to push on the hood under power i maybe have 1/2" clearance now

 

[charlief1]

True...the carb hadn't been used in over 5 years, but went through it and did a real quick visual inspection and nothing seemed out of whack. However it took a LONG time to get it started as if the float was stuck, keeping the needle closed. Finally it started, but soon had a problem with the float sticking again, but this time with the needle open. Also notice a slight leak where the accelerator pump pushrod was...before it was even gushing. I'll check it out this weekend hopefully.

Send me a note if you have any questions Aaron. I'll be glad to help if I can.:smile:

 

[futten]

the edelbrock intake has a center device which really isent sealed by the gasket what would happen if i machined out that center divider? cause i saw a weiand intake on ebay and it dident have that center divider

 

[dr_frankenstein]

the edelbrock intake has a center device which really isent sealed by the gasket what would happen if i machined out that center divider? cause i saw a weiand intake on ebay and it dident have that center divider

nooooo no no no no...

leave that well alone.

A.j.