My billet TA block on Methanol/E85 w/ 160lb injectors and a Gen2 'street' car build.

Discussion in 'E85 Technical Forum' started by marleyskater420, Oct 19, 2011.

  1. MCH86GN

    MCH86GN
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    Thank you for the kind words! I hope this thread can show people that with the right planning and approach, any sort of build is possible![/QUOTE]
    I wish I would've been more patience and thought through what I really wanted, with all the money I've spent I could've bought a TA block and had it built. I just had a 109 block rebuild and I was surprised at the final cost and then more surprise when I said I want to run 600rwhp and my engine builder told me, you should've went to a stage 2 or TA block.
    I'm still happy and blessed to have what do have though. If can get mid 10's I'll be happy.
     
  2. MCH86GN

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    Good luck with your build.
     
  3. marleyskater420

    marleyskater420
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    So my Weldon Sponsorship is official!!

    HUGE thanks to Mr. Craig at Weldon for taking a chance on me and letting me sport some excellent Weldon gear!! They hooked it up with a HELLA badass Weldon A2040 fuel pressure regulator! Has dual -10AN inlets, a -8AN return line, a 1/8" NPT boost reference port, and a 1/8" NPT pressure port as well. This regulator can control up to 6GPM..GALLONS Per Minute!! I will never need another AFPR again!! Here is a link to the regulator for those interested in one: https://www.weldonracing.com/store/A2040-Series-Bypass-Regulators-p56722017

    If Anyone needs Weldon stuff, please hit me up! I will do whatever I can to help you guys get some legit Weldon stuff in your hands! www.weldonracing.com


    Also shown is the finished WORK Turbo that Reed just made for me. Borg Warner 300SXE 69/68 with a twin scroll housing and polished compressor cover! www.workturbochargers.com
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  4. marleyskater420

    marleyskater420
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    Completely stoked that my WORK Turbochargers ( www.workturbochargers.com ) turbo came in this week!

    This is a Borg Warner 300SXE turbo with a 69mm compressor wheel and 68mm turbine wheel. It has a polished compressor cover, a 4-bolt twin scroll housing, and a v-band downpipe connection. The ceramic coating on the turbine housing came out hella badass, and the polished cover looks sweeeeeet!

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    I also walked in to my office to find my new Hellwig front tubular 1 5/16" swaybar had arrived! I was way stoked to see this thing finally here after like 2 months of waiting!!

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    Now I just need to install this stuff!!
     
  5. Gene Van Horn

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    Great looking toys there. Isnt that a 4 bolt turbo. Im imterested in how you are gonna make that work? Some kind of adapter? When you install please post some pics as im interested in a Work Turbo myself. Thanks Gene.
     
  6. marleyskater420

    marleyskater420
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    Thanks man!
    I'm actually gonna run some Gee M Racing headers that are a twin scroll setup for the 4 bolt housing.

    Hit me up on a PM if you'd like more info.
     
  7. marleyskater420

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    I know it has been a few since I have updated this thread. I've been a bit busy working on some local friend's cars and trying to put together the makings of a new Turbo Buick company that will offer really high quality rotating assemblies, turbos, headers, and hopefully cylinder heads as well... I'm currently working with Tom Molnar to develop the first-ever wide journal h-beam rod that can take over 2,000hp, and will cost a fraction of what the Crower rods cost! These rods will be purpose-built to withstand everything and more than what the Crower rods can take. I wanted to create these rods to bring something new to the Buick community that we desperately need- connecting rods that are extremely strong and yet affordable enough that your average consumer can purchase a pair. No longer will those with huge bankrolls be the only people that can build motors that make 1,500hp! So keep out an eye in the future for any updates.... ;)

    Speaking of new and innovative products...

    I wanted to take a moment to show you guys this new center console gauge holders that I am going to be running in my own car, and installing on some local cars as well! They are made by @anthony mendoza on here. His email is Anthonymendoza1110@yahoo.com if you want to reach him. We will be working on a new gauge holder that has space for an alky controller, and create a mockup for a 3rd gauge panel that will extend into the passenger area and have the gauge angled at the driver about 15-30degrees. Take a look at some of his work so far!

    If I didn't think that the build quality and finish on these pieces were top-quality, I wouldn't be putting them in my thread.


    Please feel free to take a look and offer up any suggestions or requests that you may have for a design! I'll have Anthony come in here and post and he is open to any ideas or changes you may want to see in his gauge clusters!


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  8. marleyskater420

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    So I have been going through my notes lately and found some good information on Turbos, wheel efficiency,wheel matching, and other stuff like how to calculate the compressor and turbine wheel trim, how figure your pressure ratios for choosing a turbo, and how to read compressor maps. The images for this post were taken from https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/ if you would like to read more on your own.

    Yes. I am bored. I don't have my heads back from Champion yet, so I can't really do anything other than keep on reading and learning, so hopefully some of this stuff helps you guys that want to get a little more "how-to" info on turbos that what we commonly see..

    In order to get into some of the explanations here, I need to establish a few definitions for us. This is just some basic notes that you should be familiar with if you choose to get into the more complicated areas of determining what compressor or turbine wheels to choose.

    #1 First Law of Thermodynamics, aka the "Ideal Gas Law" = states that the relationship between volume (v), pressure (p), and temperature (t) can be expressed as the following:

    PV / T = Constant
    Where ;
    P = Pressure of the gas
    V = Volume it occupies
    T = Temperature of the gas

    Variation A) If the Volume (v) is a constant, and increase in temperature (t) results in a proportional increase in pressure (p)

    Variation B) If Pressure (p) is constant, an increase in temperature (t) results in a proportional increase in volume (v) .

    Variation C) Inversely, if volume (v) is decreased, and pressure (p) remains constant, temperature (t) must decrease.

    Note: Pressure (p) and volume (v) are directly proportional to temperature (t), and inversely proportional to each other.

    With all that established, first we will look at Compressor Wheel Efficiency
    1) When the compressor wheel is operating at the max efficiency within its' flow range, that efficiency is expressed as a percentage of how close it comes to compressing the gas to meet the mathematical requirements of the Ideal Gas Law.
    2) A compressor wheel that is 100% efficient is called adiabatic, which means "occurring without gain or loss of heat". If this is transpiring, you could essentially calculate the compressor's discharge air temp just by knowing the inlet temperature and discharge pressure.
    3) When a compressor is said to have efficiency of 76% that means it has the capability to compress air with a 76% adiabatic level of efficiency.

    1) Determining the Required Mass Air Flow and Boost Pressures to Reach a Target Horsepower:
    In order to take our best shot at this, some things will have to be estimated. We need to know the following:
    *Horsepower Target = 1,000
    *Engine Displacement =273
    *Max RPM = 6750
    *Ambient Conditions

    We will have to estimate the following:
    *Engine Volumetric Efficiency (80-95% for a 2-valve engine)
    *Intake Manifold Pressure
    *BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) .85

    2) Now that we know what we are going to be looking for, we need to start off by calculating the airflow required to generate the horsepower we are aiming for.
    The formula for this is;

    Airflow = Wa = HP * A/F * BSFC/60

    Where:

    *Wa = Airflow (lb/min)
    *HP = Horsepower Target (flywheel)
    *A/F = Air/Fuel Ratio
    *BSFC/60 = Brake Specific Fuel Consumption .85 / 60

    So:
    Step 1:
    Wa = (1,000 * 8) * (.85/60)
    Step 2: Wa = 8,000 * 0.0141
    Step 3: Wa = 113.33 lb/min of air

    *This means that in order for my engine to make 1,000hp, it will need to flow 113.33 lb/min of air.

    3) Now that we know how much air we need to move through our engine, we now need to calculate the required manifold pressure needed to meet our horsepower, aka airflow target.

    To do so, we use the following equation:

    MAPreq = Wa * R * (460 + Tm) / VE * N/2 * Vd
    Where:
    Wa = Airflow in lb/min - 113.33 lb/hr
    R = Fuel Constant 639.6 (We're gonna use gasoline for this)
    Tm = Intake Manifold Temperature (degrees in Fahrenheit) 140degree
    VE = Volumetric Efficiency - .85
    N = Engine Speed (RPM) - 6,750
    Vd = Engine Displacement in cubic inches (convert Liters to C.I. by X 61.02 ) - 273ci

    So now we begin to fill in our equation:
    Step 1: MAPreq = (113.33 * 639.6) * (460 + 140) / .85 * 6750/2 * 273
    Step 2: MAPreq = 72,485.87 * 600 / .85 * 3,375 * 273
    Step 3: MAPreq = 43,491,522 / 2,868.75 * 273
    Step 4: MAPreq = 43,491,522 / 783,168.75
    Step 5: MAPreq = 55.53psia
    The 55.53psi is
    absolute pressure so we need to subtract the atmospheric pressure (14.7psi) from the 55.53psi, in order to get what we call "gauge" pressure. = 55.53psi - 14.7psi = 40.8psi manifold pressure required, or 2.72 Bar.

    Now, remember that I am using a Volumetric Efficiency of only 85%, an inlet air temp of 140 degrees, and a max rpm of 6,750. If I were to increase the VE of the engine or lower the rpms it would have a significant effect on the manifold pressure required.

    4) Now we know that we need 113.33 lb/min of airflow, and a manifold pressure of 40.8psi, so we can begin looking through compressor maps to see if we can find a wheel with those requirements.

    Here is a basic compressor map:
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    On the left side of the map, going vertically, you can see the measurements in units of "Bar", or atmospheric pressure. 1 Bar = 14.7psi. So 2 Bar = 14.7 x 2 = 29.4psi.
    On the bottom of the map you can see numbers that denote the airflow in lbs/min for that wheel.

    Knowing that we need 2.72 Bar with 113.33lbs/min airflow, we will now look for a compressor wheel that can flow 113.33lb/min at 2.72 Bar and still be inside one of the "efficiency islands" on the map (these are the various circles on the map that relate to the efficiency percentage of the wheel when it is operating at that pressure and airflow.

    So just to make it easy, I found this turbo with a wheel that works perfectly for our needs: https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbochargers/gtx4508r

    Hopefully this writeup has shown you a much more precise way to calculate just exactly how much airflow you will need from your turbo, and at what manifold pressure as well.



    Oh, Just in case any of you are curious, here is an equation to figure an engine's potential cfm flow...

    How To Calculate Your Engine's Potential CFM flow:

    1) Density Ratio = For any given compressor efficiency line there will be a resulting increase in air density as a given pressure....as the compressor is operated progressively more and more towards the more efficient ranges of the wheel, the wheel does not heat up the air as much as it would at the less-efficient areas of operation, and thus the air is increasingly more dense since it is not operating at a higher temperature (due to it being at a more more efficient operating level).

    2) In order to know how much turbo cfm we need, we first need to calculate the potential airflow of the engine.
    If our engine displacement is rated in CC's, we take our displacement in CC's and divide it by 16.387 which gives us our cubic inch displacement. EX: A 4.5L motor is 4,500cc's. 4,500 / 16.387 = 274 cubic inches.

    If we already have the cubic inches of our engine, we can move on to the cfm equation.
    Equation: CFM = ( cid (cubic inch displacement) X Max RPM of engine ) / 3,456, and then multiply that number by the VE (volumetric efficiency), and that will give you the potential cfm flow of the engine.
    Step 1: EX: ( 274 X 6750 ) / 3,456
    Step 2: EX: (274 x 6750) = 1,849,500
    Step 3: EX: 1,849,500 / 3,456 = 535cfm
    Step 4: EX: 535cfm X .85% =454.75cfm is the potential CFM flow of my engine.
     
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  9. The Granny

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    cool stuff bud, A few things stuck out to me though. why'd you use gas for the fuel constant if you used a/f targets and bsfc of an e85 engine in the previous equation, to figure out how much air you need to flow per minute? I never knew any of that, it's definitely cool to learn like this. I'm taking a thermodynamics class this semester too so hopefully I'll be able to relate what I learn to my car.

    are intake air temps really around 140 on an e85 car too? that seems pretty high, in 90-100° weather at idle I'm around 120° IAT I believe and on a full it they drop down to 60° or so. but that's with meth injection so I'm not sure what kinda difference that'd make when compared to e85.


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  10. marleyskater420

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    For the IAT I went high just to be on the safe side in my calculations. If I used a higher temp IAT, which means less dense air, as inferred from Variation B) up above, it would hopefully give me a number that is obviously a little high, but it would be a solid number to aim for so that you are sure to reach your goal.

    I went high on the IATs for reasons I just stated.

    If you play around with the numbers like the RPM, IAT, or VE, you can really see how critical each piece of the puzzle is, and how much of an effect it can have to determining your airflow requirements.

    Hopefully we can get some other people to chime in here and have ourselves a nice discussion about this stuff!

    -Tyler
     
    #170 marleyskater420, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  11. marleyskater420

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    After doing about 4 hours of research, I think I was entirely wrong in my understanding of the "Gas Constant" in the equation.

    Since the equation deals with air flow under pressure, and the gas constant, aka "universal molar gas constant" is a "physical constant that appears in an equation defining the behavior of a gas under theoretically ideal conditions. The gas constant is, by convention, symbolized R".

    This entire time I have been scouring the internet trying to find a gas constant for E85, and this whole time the gas constant wasn't dealing with gasoline, but the gas-air! Haha, jokes on me!
     
  12. The Granny

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    I actually just learned about the ideal gas law this morning in my fluid mechanics class and the professor mentioned the gas constant was related to the atmosphere , that's funny you found that out too though. It'd be interesting to see how accurate these equations are. I'm going to try and go to a dyno event this weekend, if I do I'll crunch the numbers and report back


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  13. marleyskater420

    marleyskater420
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    So I just got an update from Gee M Racing that my new headers are finished!!

    They should ship out today or tomorrow and hopefully be here in a week or so!

    These are Gee M Racing's Race Headers for a Twin Scroll 4-bolt housing. These have 1 5/8" primaries, stainless tubing, v-band connection points, 2 external wastegate provisions, and 2 bungs added as well. If any of you are interested in a set of these headers, their Street Headers (pictured below mine), or their Stage 2 headers (not pictured) please feel free to hit me up, as I am 1 of only 2 official dealers for these headers in the U.S. You can send me a message here, or shoot me a text or call, which is typically the fastest way to reach me, at 707 362 6030

    -Tyler

    Here is a pic they sent me of these sexy beasts..

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    Here is a pic of Troy's Street Headers with an external WG provision and 2 bungs added :

    [​IMG]
     
    #173 marleyskater420, Sep 12, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
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  14. Pronto

    Pronto
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    Very interesting. Why no egt ports?
     
  15. marleyskater420

    marleyskater420
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    2 main reasons:

    1) I am not running an aftermarket ECU that can data log those sensors so that they may be of use to me.

    2) I'm not going to buy 6 EGT probes for this car when I have so many other things I'd be better off spending my money on.

    If I had the resources and the hardware/software already in place, it would be a different story.
     
  16. Gene Van Horn

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    Marley, couple ??? Those four bolt flanges, what kinda turbo you gonna run. Are they for the worx turbos? And of course the cost.
     
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  17. marleyskater420

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    Hi Gene,

    What do you mean by "couple ???"

    Those aren't regular 4 bolt flanges. These headers are for twin-scroll exhaust housings that are divided in the center. These headers have separate primaries for the driver and passenger side exhaust gases so that they never meet, and in fact act like "pulses" when they hit the turbine wheel and aid in spooling the turbo faster.

    I plan on running the turbo I post a bit ago: A WORK Turbo Borg Warner 300SXE with a 69mm compressor wheel, 73mm turbine wheel, polished compressor housing, ceramic coated turbine housing, and the "Fully WORKed" option, which upgrades the thrust bearings, the oiling system, modifies the compressor and turbine housings for improved airflow, and a 3-axis balancing of the whole wheel assembly.

    The Gee M Racing headers can work with ANY turbo manufacturer. I want to be clear on that....however you only need to run a WORK turbo since it is the best :p

    What specifically were you wanting pricing on? The headers, or the turbo?

    With respect, this turbo may be a bit large for your setup ( obviously I don't know what your setup is, hence why I said "may" )but if you'd like to shoot me a PM here or a text message or phone call, we can figure out the best turbo for your setup.

    Reed (owner of WORK Turbo) is currently building a turbo for a local guy that I am working on his car, and Reed is giving him a brand new TA-style housing with a billet wheel, and a billet 60mm compressor wheel and 56mm turbine wheel for $750... A billet wheel'd turbo for $750?!?! I still think that is crazy that he doing it that cheap, but I am stoked my local guy is getting a killer turbo!!


    Anyway Gene, please feel free to contact me whenever with any further questions you may have!

    -Tyler
     
  18. marleyskater420

    marleyskater420
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    Edit: Doublepost
     

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