Looking for new Turbo Just plain lost on what to get :(

[thunderace31]

Ok the turbo on my car now as told to me when I got it off a board member is TE45a with a 65mm wheel making it a TE65??? Has .63 exaust housing.

I seem to be stuck in the flipping 11's with this turbo! Sick of it! I want 10's lol

Best time has been 11.04 at 29psi!!!!!!!! Im not liking the super high boost level much either

engine is mostly stock with a girdle set up and is only .30 over boar and I think hyper pistons. (eng. was in the car when I purchased it 2 years go) stock valve unported heads (As far as I know) 206/206 cam 3.5" DP with Exteral racegate, 3" single shot exaust, PTE front mount, Huge fuel system reds duoble pumper -10 to the rail and -6 return line + alky control 60lb motorons and tt race gas chip
Rear end and is done up as well as a 3.5 chrome alloy drive shaft
Built trans by brian on the board here and dose have a stage right brake (Havnt used the brake yet)
Art car 3500 "0" n/l converter
I know with the brake I can get a 10.80 or so out of her but the high boost scars the crap out of me and spool up is not what I think it should be really.

So I come to you as the experts on what to get next

Im looking at several turbos Im listing them below and want to know what some of you would put on the car so it will foot brake to the toon of High 10's and then trans brake to say 10.50 or a little faster

Turbos on my list are-
GT6776s 4" inlet 2.5 out
CPT66 4" inlet 2.5 out
CPT70 4" inlet 2.5 out
GTQ70 4" inlet 3" out??

That would be them all they all have there good points Im more interested in what one will make the most power at the lowest boost setting say 22-25psi max

Thanks for the help and info in advace I know may of you know way more than I do about turbos I am also having a hard time reading the compressor maps I know those tell the tail on what a turbo will do at any given boost level
Derek

 

[Brer Rabbit]

although I have a 6776...

I would say just do the 70 BB and forget it. U have enough convertor for that turbo. Good luck.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Get used to high boost. With stock heads your not going 10's with 24# period. You have to move the air, with stock heads that means 30+ boost.

I went 10.40's with that turbo, others have went much further. It's plenty big enough. Those others will not pick you up any and could be too big. You need a good 60 foot. A mismatched turbo and converter can slow you down the first 100 foot of track.

Check your valvesprings. You need 90-100# of seat pressure or your wasting your time. Shift at 5600-5800 with that cam.

How much rpm drop on the shift and where are you shifting at??


Post your time slip from the 11.04 pass so we all can see what might need attention.

Going fast is much more than bolting on the biggest part. TUNE, TUNE. The fastest stock head car I know of is on this site. It took 35# or so of boost to go 10.70's. Your not going to do it with 24# with a bigger turbo so don't think that way. 11.00 to 10.50 is HUGE.

 

[thunderace31]

Get used to high boost. With stock heads your not going 10's with 24# period. You have to move the air, with stock heads that means 30+ boost.

I went 10.40's with that turbo, others have went much further. It's plenty big enough. Those others will not pick you up any and could be too big. You need a good 60 foot. A mismatched turbo and converter can slow you down the first 100 foot of track.

Check your valvesprings. You need 90-100# of seat pressure or your wasting your time. Shift at 5600-5800 with that cam.

How much rpm drop on the shift and where are you shifting at??


Post your time slip from the 11.04 pass so we all can see what might need attention.

Going fast is much more than bolting on the biggest part. TUNE, TUNE. The fastest stock head car I know of is on this site. It took 35# or so of boost to go 10.70's. Your not going to do it with 24# with a bigger turbo so don't think that way. 11.00 to 10.50 is HUGE.

Humm I let the car shift its self it shifts around 5600-5700 Rpm every gear
I tried to take a photo of the time slip but its to light on yellow paper and you cant see any of so Ill just type it in below let me know what you think


Left off the foot brake at like 4-5lbs of boost also on this pass
1.7639 60 foot
4.6132 330 ft.
7.06 1/8th mile
99.75 Mph 1/8th mile
9.2080 1000 foot
113.36 mph 1000 foot
11.0432 1/4 mile
121.29 mph 1/4 mile

 

[RUQWKNF]

Hey Derek.
There are a lot of people who are in the exact same boat as you are right now, some just don't speak up, but I can assure you, there are or will be a lot of people paying attention to this thread.

Everyone should go back and re-read what Dusty just typed. If anyone should know what it takes, he does. He didn't get too become 3 time champion of TSS by guessing. He fine tuned his combo year after year and knows his stuff when it comes to these combos. Paid his dues in full. I was seriously impressed the first time I saw him run 10's with a stock intercooler. I was like So preach on Dusty.

The only things I can add are, the GT-Q turbine wheel will really help relieve the back pressure that your motor is surely seeing now when being run at 28-29psi with your current turbo. The dual ball bearing cartridge will also help spool up requirements on the GT-Q turbine wheel, so your converter should be sufficient. The 70mm compressor wheel needs to be spun up pretty high to make the power needed to reach even high 10s with stock heads. By high I mean at a minimum 26-28psi. You need to force as much as into the motor as possible breathing through un-ported stock iron heads, and only having a 206 cam. What Dusty said about valve springs and shift points on that cam is dead on as well. Some say you could go with a 70 P-trim and you'd be good, but with your goals of wanting to foot brake to high 10s, you'll need the power capabilities of the 70GTQ DBB turbo.

On another note, if you've read the articles in GMHTP about Ricks '87 Turbo T, he got into the high 10s with his combo with a 67GTQ journal bearing turbo on moderate boost levels. In my honest opinion, the GT-Q wheel is the optimum choice for the goals you have set. The 70mm comp wheel will make more power at lower boost levels than the 67 comp wheel will make. There have not been any back to back spool up tests done on a 70 GTQ DBB vs a 67 GTQ DBB because honestly, I don't know of anyone that owns a 67 GTQ DBB yet. Are you still running stock headers and a stock cross over? Gotta check them for leaks big time. To me, anything you can do to help the motor breath easier, the easier it will be to run high 10's on the foot brake.
Hope some of this helps and definitely listen to what Dusty has to say.
Looking at your slip, your 60ft is the only thing holding you back from high 10s on the foot brake.


Patrick

 

[8UWITH6]

I second Dusty........... TUNE TUNE TUNE my friend. Youve got the parts for it! Get the 60ft down and get your 10.80 pass sir! How on earth do you think I ran the number in my sig below on a PT-51? TUNING!!! HAVE FUN!

 

[thunderace31]

Hey Derek.
There are a lot of people who are in the exact same boat as you are right now, some just don't speak up, but I can assure you, there are or will be a lot of people paying attention to this thread.

Everyone should go back and re-read what Dusty just typed. If anyone should know what it takes, he does. He didn't get too become 3 time champion of TSS by guessing. He fine tuned his combo year after year and knows his stuff when it comes to these combos. Paid his dues in full. I was seriously impressed the first time I saw him run 10's with a stock intercooler. I was like So preach on Dusty.

The only things I can add are, the GT-Q turbine wheel will really help relieve the back pressure that your motor is surely seeing now when being run at 28-29psi with your current turbo. The dual ball bearing cartridge will also help spool up requirements on the GT-Q turbine wheel, so your converter should be sufficient. The 70mm compressor wheel needs to be spun up pretty high to make the power needed to reach even high 10s with stock heads. By high I mean at a minimum 26-28psi. You need to force as much as into the motor as possible breathing through un-ported stock iron heads, and only having a 206 cam. What Dusty said about valve springs and shift points on that cam is dead on as well. Some say you could go with a 70 P-trim and you'd be good, but with your goals of wanting to foot brake to high 10s, you'll need the power capabilities of the 70GTQ DBB turbo.

On another note, if you've read the articles in GMHTP about Ricks '87 Turbo T, he got into the high 10s with his combo with a 67GTQ journal bearing turbo on moderate boost levels. In my honest opinion, the GT-Q wheel is the optimum choice for the goals you have set. The 70mm comp wheel will make more power at lower boost levels than the 67 comp wheel will make. There have not been any back to back spool up tests done on a 70 GTQ DBB vs a 67 GTQ DBB because honestly, I don't know of anyone that owns a 67 GTQ DBB yet. Are you still running stock headers and a stock cross over? Gotta check them for leaks big time. To me, anything you can do to help the motor breath easier, the easier it will be to run high 10's on the foot brake.
Hope some of this helps and definitely listen to what Dusty has to say.
Looking at your slip, your 60ft is the only thing holding you back from high 10s on the foot brake.


Patrick

Im listing to everything everyone has to say Trust me I ask only because I am unsure what I need to do

I do still have the stock headers/cross over and I cant find any cracks in any of them. Also dont apear to have any leaks but I was thinking about putting a dif. set of headers on it and many say you dont need them without better heads (Or is what I read on this site)

I also have a .84 exaust housing setting here that came with this turbo Im not to keen on taking the thing apart lol afraid Ill "F" it up since I know nothing about turbos other than they make big boost and power. Im trying to learn as much as I can as fast as I can though!

Now next question the Full Ball bearing GT6776 Full throttel sells is this a GTQ wheel turbo??

Next thing I was thinking of trying was swapping out for some better headers and putting the .83 housing on it and maybe bump the timming a little to make more power. Everyone says more timming helps spool up is this true??

Thanks again guys for all the help and info I really do hope it helps more than just me on this board

 

[RUQWKNF]

- .85 or .83 or anything .8X will kill your spool up at this level.

- GT6776 has a P-trim turbine wheel, not GTQ. The 76 in the part number designate that it has a 76 trim turbine wheel. 76 = P-trim when talking about these turbos.

- Headers are not really needed until you go ported heads, or aluminum heads and bigger cam. Basically 10.40s and faster. I was mentioning it as a source of leaks that tend to develop and kill spool up.

- Timing will help with spool up, but in all honesty, most race chips already have high timing down low and pull the timing back as the boost and load start too build. 26-27* under WOT is about perfect for high boost levels. Some have had good luck running higher, but I never did.

- Just for the record, there are only two A/R ratios in the .80 range on these 3-bolt Buick turbos. And they are, Garrett .82 A/R, Precision .85 A/R and I believe T-netics either .82 or .85 A/R. If you did put that larger A/R housing on your existing turbo, the bottom end would go away unless you bolted on a looser stall converter.

I really think you have enough now to bust off a 10.80 if you could foot brake 8-9psi and get your 60ft down to the 1.60 ish range.

Patrick

 

[no-nos]

i have the 70 gtq dual BB, i have'nt had the chance to run it yet ( new motor still on stand.) but i can say it spins so easy compared to a regular 70. I know it's a bit more but definetly worth it. got it from HARTLINE but i know other vendors sell it also. ( i'm sure you knew that :redface: )

 

[thunderace31]

- .85 or .83 or anything .8X will kill your spool up at this level.

- GT6776 has a P-trim turbine wheel, not GTQ. The 76 in the part number designate that it has a 76 trim turbine wheel. 76 = P-trim when talking about these turbos.

- Headers are not really needed until you go ported heads, or aluminum heads and bigger cam. Basically 10.40s and faster. I was mentioning it as a source of leaks that tend to develop and kill spool up.

- Timing will help with spool up, but in all honesty, most race chips already have high timing down low and pull the timing back as the boost and load start too build. 26-27* under WOT is about perfect for high boost levels. Some have had good luck running higher, but I never did.

- Just for the record, there are only two A/R ratios in the .80 range on these 3-bolt Buick turbos. And they are, Garrett .82 A/R, Precision .85 A/R and I believe T-netics either .82 or .85 A/R. If you did put that larger A/R housing on your existing turbo, the bottom end would go away unless you bolted on a looser stall converter.

I really think you have enough now to bust off a 10.80 if you could foot brake 8-9psi and get your 60ft down to the 1.60 ish range.

Patrick

Well I have a 3400-3500 Stall so I would think it should spool better than it dose now so Im off to look for leaks!
Its .85 stamped on it (Just looked)

Thanks for all the info also Very helpfull. I only want to run good #'s off the foot brake do to so much street racing in my area (I know I know its bad but damn good fun!) I dont want to run the T-brake except at the track just to much danger already to add that to the mix Or so I think the t-brake kinda scars the crap out of me lol


All my times have been threw the 3" single shot exaust also I was thinking of stepping it up to a 4" but I cant find any 4" DP with an external gate set up. I have a 3.5 dp now but it necks to the 3 at the end.
I know this would help spool and should make it so I can pull 8lbs on the brakes
See my little pin head I call a brain is always working lol
I know the car spools like a b*tch with the exaust off as I had it come apart a few weeks back right at the DP (Clamp broke) on the way home I swear the car never ran better! But boy she was load in the car lol.

Might just try it and see what happens.

Again thanks for all the info and thoughts! Very very much appretiated! (Spelling sorry)

 

[thunderace31]

i have the 70 gtq dual BB, i have'nt had the chance to run it yet ( new motor still on stand.) but i can say it spins so easy compared to a regular 70. I know it's a bit more but definetly worth it. got it from HARTLINE but i know other vendors sell it also. ( i'm sure you knew that :redface: )

I have heard nothing but good things about the GTQ70 BB Was on the top of my list but man 2 G's for a turbo is steep! Im sure its worth evey penny though!

 

[thunderace31]

One other turbo I was reading about is the New GTK from Turbonetics whats the deal with these. I dont see them as BB or was not listed on there site that way. They sound like they may have advantages??

Any thoughts??

 

[bison]

You will simply need more boost or better air for the 10.99 or better. Its no picnic with the stock heads. I say go to a set of ported irons and keep the turbo/converter you have. Use a thinner than stock head gasket to bump the CR a little. Much cheaper than the DBB GTQ. Be sure the fueling is right on during spool up. Its nice when its in the 12.0:1 range. It comes up a lot quicker when leaner. 60' will come down. The GTQ will slow down the spool unless DBB and maybe even then it might be slower. The heads will net you 10.90's at 25psi, 24 degrees no problem. Maybe even 23psi if you can go 1.50 60'. What is your a/f throughout the run?

 

[thunderace31]

You will simply need more boost or better air for the 10.99 or better. Its no picnic with the stock heads. I say go to a set of ported irons and keep the turbo/converter you have. Use a thinner than stock head gasket to bump the CR a little. Much cheaper than the DBB GTQ. Be sure the fueling is right on during spool up. Its nice when its in the 12.0:1 range. It comes up a lot quicker when leaner. 60' will come down. The GTQ will slow down the spool unless DBB and maybe even then it might be slower. The heads will net you 10.90's at 25psi, 24 degrees no problem. Maybe even 23psi if you can go 1.50 60'. What is your a/f throughout the run?

All I know about the A/F is the 02 counts on the scanmaster says 760 to 790 one time I saw an 820 no knock

I know I need some sort of dataloger I just have not decided what one to get. I like the one Turbo Tweek is selling but have not read much about it any place.
Was also looking at Direct scan
I really do need to step up to that I guess.
Also need a Wideband just worried that with race gas in the tank Im going to eat 100$ o2 for lunch

Any thoughts on this stuff and what would you use on your cars to data log???
Oh I want to stay with the stock computer set up and continue to use the TT chips I love them for there ease of use!

Thanks again for all the help and info

 

[bison]

Also need a Wideband just worried that with race gas in the tank Im going to eat 100$ o2 for lunch

Any thoughts on this stuff and what would you use on your cars to data log???
Oh I want to stay with the stock computer set up and continue to use the TT chips I love them for there ease of use!

Thanks again for all the help and info [/B]

I would go with the LM1. Its fairly cheap, uses cheap sensors, and is easy to install once the bung is welded in the downpipe. The sensor used is common to one of the Saturn models. Not sure which one but im sure someone on here would know. I think they are around $40 each. They dont $hit the bed as fast as other o2 sensors either. I use an LM1 on cars with out a datalogging stand alone myself. Id bet you are a little rich on your posted numbers.

 

[thunderace31]

I would go with the LM1. Its fairly cheap, uses cheap sensors, and is easy to install once the bung is welded in the downpipe. The sensor used is common to one of the Saturn models. Not sure which one but im sure someone on here would know. I think they are around $40 each. They dont $hit the bed as fast as other o2 sensors either. I use an LM1 on cars with out a datalogging stand alone myself. Id bet you are a little rich on your posted numbers.

Cool will the LM1 hook to any of the data logger deals out there??? Like the one TT sells??

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Thanks for the shout out Patrick aka turbo master:biggrin:

#1..... 60 foot is the most important et on your slip and your's is very bad. It should be 1.60 or better with your mph. I never used a trans brake, we used the emergency brake along with the regular brakes to get the extra launch boost. You do that and leave on 10-12# and you possibly have a 10.80 car by changing nothing else. You get used to doing this and you'll never launch again without the e-brake at the track.

Get a scan tool of some sort

If you want to leave strictly on the foot brake you need the fastest spooling turbo that will get the job done. I went the best 60 foot's with a TE45A with .63 a/r and P-trim and through the 1/8 at 6.61 and 104mph.
If you just wanted to spend the $$$. You could do the DBB 67mm with Q trim Like Patrick suggested. You shouldn't see any loss of spoolup and a reduction in backpressure. IMHO. A 70 is too big for anything other than a high-mid 9 second goal. Look at Don Palumbo, he went 9.90 with a 67mm and iron heads...the combo just works.

Don't over turbo the car. If I were you, I'd lauch harder at the strip to get the 60's where they should be and you have your 10 second slip. Here's what I found out during all my turbo swaps. A 58mm will go just as fast as a 64mm at 24# and stock heads. In some cases the 58mm will et better due to spoolup. The 64mm just gives you more airflow at high boost. The 58mm would fall off at 28# where the 64 would pull well to 34#. Your current turbo is far from maxed out. Once you learn to drive the car there is another 2 tenths easy in the current set-up.

 

[bison]

Cool will the LM1 hook to any of the data logger deals out there??? Like the one TT sells??

There is a port on the unit that can be hooked up to any PC or laptop with a functioning USB port. You can run and log 4 other 5 volt sensors on there if you would like also. You could wire in a 3 bar MAP sensor to log boost vs. tps etc.

 

[bison]

Thanks for the shout out Patrick aka turbo master:biggrin:

#1..... 60 foot is the most important et on your slip and your's is very bad. It should be 1.60 or better with your mph. I never used a trans brake, we used the emergency brake along with the regular brakes to get the extra launch boost. You do that and leave on 10-12# and you possibly have a 10.80 car by changing nothing else. You get used to doing this and you'll never launch again without the e-brake at the track.

I remember my days with the e-brake. Thunderace make sure the e-brake is released slightly before the foot brake or you will tear up the backing plates.

 

[thunderace31]

Thanks for the shout out Patrick aka turbo master:biggrin:

#1..... 60 foot is the most important et on your slip and your's is very bad. It should be 1.60 or better with your mph. I never used a trans brake, we used the emergency brake along with the regular brakes to get the extra launch boost. You do that and leave on 10-12# and you possibly have a 10.80 car by changing nothing else. You get used to doing this and you'll never launch again without the e-brake at the track.

Get a scan tool of some sort

If you want to leave strictly on the foot brake you need the fastest spooling turbo that will get the job done. I went the best 60 foot's with a TE45A with .63 a/r and P-trim and through the 1/8 at 6.61 and 104mph.
If you just wanted to spend the $$$. You could do the DBB 67mm with Q trim Like Patrick suggested. You shouldn't see any loss of spoolup and a reduction in backpressure. IMHO. A 70 is too big for anything other than a high-mid 9 second goal. Look at Don Palumbo, he went 9.90 with a 67mm and iron heads...the combo just works.

Don't over turbo the car. If I were you, I'd lauch harder at the strip to get the 60's where they should be and you have your 10 second slip. Here's what I found out during all my turbo swaps. A 58mm will go just as fast as a 64mm at 24# and stock heads. In some cases the 58mm will et better due to spoolup. The 64mm just gives you more airflow at high boost. The 58mm would fall off at 28# where the 64 would pull well to 34#. Your current turbo is far from maxed out. Once you learn to drive the car there is another 2 tenths easy in the current set-up.

THANKS DUSTY!
Ok lets say I want t little more than 2ths say 4-5ths lol the dbb67gtq is the way to go then
No who sells said turbo??? All I am finding is p-trim on most of the sites
Dusty what scan tool do you recomend??
I have been looking at direct scan and
Power Logger for Turbo Buick that TT sells I kinda like the Power logger better but not sure what one is better. And which one can the LM1 get hooked up to ??? Or can it.
As you can see I have a ton of questions they just keep popping in the pea I call a brain lol
Thanks again for your help and valuable info