Liquid cooled intercooler???

[speedy1320]

I love this board!!! It's like a Turbo-Encylopedia! I notice EXTREME differences between driving my WE-4 in cold weather vs warm weather!! Cold Air Works !!!

My question is.....I am thinking of upgrading my stock intercooler. Anyone out there using the Costly liquid job? How about the 19 row air to air....{Less $$}

I'd like to get some testimony before laying out the cash!

Thanks again!

Tom

 

[kwik gn 1]

I currently have the ATR liquid to air intercooler and believe it is the best on the market. It was expensive, but the results have been excellent. My car does not get hot like those using a front mount intercooler, and I can run the liquid through ice at the track to go REALLY FAST!! Just my opinion. DON

 

[speedy1320]

Don, Thanks for the info. ATR claims 40-50 hp gain with the liquid......do you believe that kind of power gain?

When you hooked it up, did you notice substantial power gains over the stock unit? Was the power noticeable in low end, mid, high, etc.?

thanks!

 

[Reginald West]

I will second Dons opinion about the liquid intercooler.I have had my ATR unit on my t type for 15 years and I think its one of the best things I ever did to the car.I think that ATRs claim of 45 extra horsepower is about right.Just my opinion.


REG

 

[kwik gn 1]

Speedy 1320, The ATR liquid to air intercooler seems to really shine when the outside temps are high. Also at the track, when used with ice, it is at its best. If you compared this intercooler to any other when it is hot outside, yes you would see a 45 HP difference. I noticed a big difference at low end and midrange. I think this was because at higher speeds, any intercooler can cool the intake temperature. Hope this helps. DON

 

[xlr8ngn]

What all comes w/ the ATR kit? I have been thinking of building my own, but don't want to have to re-invent the wheel. What kind of water circulating pump does it come with?

 

[postal]

Hey speedy:

My ATR liquid set up is on the way. So I cant really comment on it yet. But I have run a PTE front mount on a GN and a BGC stretch on a TTA. For the money the stretch is the hands down winner. I just sold my stretch for $400 on this bulletin board about two weeks ago. The stretch was in my TTA which sits too low to the ground and my stretch was scrapping the ground all the time. On a GN with higher ground clearance I dont think there would be a problem. I do not recomend front mounts they cost more than you think(have to fix over heating probs after you install it $$$). Stretches give real good performance with no bad down side. How fast do you want to go anyway?? You can go 11's on stock long block and stretch IC EASY! I ran faster every time I took my car to the track last year(3 times) and wound up running an 11.30@119. You should post what mods your car currently has so peeps can point you in the right direction for maximum results for your money spent.

HTH and good luck: Jason

 

[DR BOOST]

TE-63E, BGC stretch, hehehe thats all jason? . Put on the atr intercooler, spray, and take 5 lengths and a bust. just kidding jason. Maybe u should just do the duttweiler neck on ur stock intercooler. im gonna start the stereo install next week. if u got any good idea, email me.

does bowling green customs sell chrome craniums or did u have urs buffed?



surej

 

[NastyGn]

I agree with the other posts. I used a cold box on a stretched
IC and it worked very well, the top half of the IC was boxed in
and the bottom half was not it did have the big neck, I ran 10.74 with this type of IC.

My new IC is made by Sperco with tanks designed by Conley's
and fits in the stock location it's a water to air IC with a cold box in the trunk and the water is pumped to the IC on a 98 deg. day with 80+ humidity the air going into the motor will just touch 100 deg with water and ice at the end of a 1/4 mile blast.

I think from different debates that the higher the air temp and humidty you race in the more difference the two IC have. A FM
IC has to start with the outside temp to start with. The water to air IC will start colder than the outside temp. I believe from peoples post that once you have outside temps in the 50 to 60
degree range the difference between the two types start to go away. And for me here in TX racing in the 50 to 60 deg. range is rare.

Good Luck
But like was posted how fast you want to go

 

[xlr8ngn]

coldbox in trunk....

Neal, is your setup for drag race only? I see where you have a good setup for that. That is really good discharge temps at the end of the 1/4. You must monitor your air inlet and discharge temps. What is your average air discharge temp out of the turbo? Also, do you know what flow rate in gpm you have through the IC and what the temperature rise is of the water? Have you by chance checked the pressure drop of the water and air across the IC. How much was that IC from Spearco/Conley's? I know it is alot of questions, but I am definitely going to go w/ a liquid unit whether I buy one or build it. I am looking to dip into the 10's. I am currently building my engine. I have added the center main caps w/ studs, polished all main webbing in the block, baked the block in an oven overnight to reduce stress, brand new in box GM stock crank fully polished, polished and removed weight off rods, TRW .030 over pistons lightened w/ polished tops, total seal rings. I will be using a PT-52 turbo I bought a couple of years ago and never put on. I still have alot more things to do and buy but I am slowly proceeding. It will be built right though. I am considering selling the TRW pistons because they are so heavy, even with lighter pins and material removed. Any help on the IC would be appreciated.

 

[NastyGn]

Well at this time yes the car is set up more for race than any street driving, when I had my stock type IC with the cold box it was more of a street driver.

As far as temp I only monitor my inlet air, I have check the temp of the water in the cold box and it's in the 34 to 38 deg range.
After a run the water in the cold box will be about 70 to 80 deg
range, almost like bath water. I'm not sure what the out put of the pump is off hand, it's a 1/4 hp and has a 5/8 hose hooked up to it and when it's on I can wash a car with it, no problem.

Depending on how much ice I pump into the system I can make my charge air in the 38 deg range to start. If I only put a bag of ice into the system and don't run it through the IC to pre cool it the starting temp will be higher. This is racing only and not on the street.

As far as a price I would call Conley's I got mine in a package deal with some other parts and it's not broke out, the pump also came from sperco.

Well my stock stretched IC with the big neck and a cold box attached to it, the car ran 10.76. This was with about the same mods you are talking about. I don't think you would need a system like I have now unless you plan on going much faster than the 10 you are speaking about or just want a big system.

I hope that answers your questions.

 

[speedy1320]

Thanks guys !

Thanks so much for all the info! To answer a few of your questions......my WE-4 isn't too far from stock : larger injectors, 3"DP, Race Cat, ATR SS Exhaust with Pitbull Muffs, ATR Chip,K&N filter {stock replmnt} Magnecore wires. body bushings, seat brace and Thats it!

The car runs real well, with only 68K on the clock, but like I said on a COLD day......LOOK OUT....untouchable performance.....I KNOW I need to improve the IC on this car! I guess the real question is Will a 21 row Air to Air IC do Enough for me....or do I Bite the bullet and go with a Liquid Cool unit??? By the way, this is a Street car.....

Any other suggestions out there without making this just a Track Car?

As far as questions from some of you on how fast i want to go......well guys, that's like asking me how much money is ENOUGH !!!!

 

[blackbuick87]

How can a water/air IC be an advantage on a street setup? Its obviously a huge advantage if you can use icewater for a drag strip run. But as far as street driving isnt the radiator coolant used to cool the inatke charge? wouldnt that be 160 degrees or so? Or am I stupid and missing something. Thanks for indulging me.

 

[KENNE-BILL]

Anyone ever see one of these Intracoolers? http://www.coolflow.com/prod1.htm

 

[xlr8ngn]

Neal, thank you very much for the information. You are in the stage arena. Are your times with a stock block or with a stage motor? 9's is FAST!!!! I did not read your signature the first post. Blackbuick87, unless you are road racing how long are you really at W.O.T. Not very long. Also, you have to consider the approach to ambient. How close will the discharge air from the IC come to the temperature of the water. Lets assume the ambient air is 90 degrees F. If you have an air to water exchanger in front of the radiator that cools the water to 10 degrees F of ambient, your water temperature is 100 degrees F. If your IC will cool the disharge air to within 15 degrees of your cooling water, then you have an air inlet temperature into the motor of 115 degrees F. You must also make sure you have enough thermal mass to make a 1/4 mile pass. Are these numbers realistic, I don't know. It will be something I have to find out from spearco or others like Neal who have been there and done this. Kenne-Bill the technology being used is also a thermal mass. The refrigerant cools the air, the thermal mass "dynalene" removes the heat of compression of compressing the refrigerant. I am not sure which is better, but I see how both will work. It all depends on the amount of thermal mass versus on how often you will demand the cooling of the thermal mass. How many BTU's can it absorb I guess is the question? Lets keep this thread going.

 

[Spoolinup]

Kenne-Bill, I saw that thing 2 years ago in the early stages. They needed a car to test it on and were giving it away for like 1/2 price to that guy. I think they are in texas.

If I remember right, it takes 5 hours to install it properly! ???

One reason I felt the over $2000 for it was senseless.

You might as well get a front mount and with the other $1000 get a whole bunch of other things to make more power than that ic can.

 

[NastyGn]

Originally posted by xlr8ngn
Neal, thank you very much for the information. You are in the stage arena. Are your times with a stock block or with a stage motor? 9's is FAST!!!! I did not read your signature the first post.

The motor that is now in the car is a Stage II with GN1R heads.
This is the motor that has run the 9.71's, as I wrote a few posts
above my 3.8 ran 10.76's this was with ported and polished stock iron heads, stock crank, JE pistons a Conleys 221/221 flat tappit cam, stock rods, 55# injectors and a TE-63-1 blueprinted and balanced by Conleys. The IC was a stretched stock with the bigger neck and a cold box on the upper half of the IC the bottom was open to the air. This motor would run the 10.76 at 22# of boost with a 7# launch. The cars weight was 3780 with me and had no fiberglass anywhere.

If I were to go play on the street I would take an ice chest full of ice to load the IC. As far as playing from light to light the car was fast enough to raise hell with most of what you will see on the street with out putting more ice in the IC.

The problem with playing on the street at this level became traction, even with cheater slicks (dot soft compound) was that if the street was dusty or not clean and I could soft launch it the car would go up in smoke when it shifted into second like a John
Force burn out. I'm sure the suspension could be set up to be a real street racer but that set up usualy is not best for the track and that is how the car rolled over from a real street driver to more a toy and drag car, but it still has all the options it came with.

If you go to Precision Turbo & Eng web site there is a picture of the car making a launch, this was with the 3.8 motor and was at
the Noble, OK Buick - Ford Shootout a few years ago. You can look at the rear tires and see where with this amount of power where good traction serfice is important.

Take Care and good luck

 

[Awesome T]

When I first got involved in Turbo Buicks, I heard that liquid IC's were not all they are cracked up to be, so I discounted them. But, a fellow poster posted a link (below) to a site that tested the theory of spraying a regular intercooler with a liquid to gain cooling effect through evaporation. Their conclusion was that spraying an IC did not really help. However, what made a lasting impression on me from the article is the observation that an intercooler acted much more like a heat sink rather than a radiator, and that the heavier the mass that the hot air passes through, the more heat that mass can absorb before becoming saturated. So, this leads me to think that a large front mount would be more efficient, if their theory is correct, than a stock location due to it being physically larger. Therefore, if you believe that, then a liquid I/C, as long as it's mass is larger than a F/M IC, should be able to absorb more heat and be that much more efficient.
Some people don't buy the argument, but take a look at the link, and see if it makes sense to you. HTH.

http://www.autospeed.com/A_0527/P_2/article.html

This is page two. Whole article is a good read.

 

[xlr8ngn]

Intracooler...

My previous post about how I thought the intracooler works was wrong. I guess I had a few too many when I was looking at their web site. It works just like any liquid intercooler except it uses your refrigerant circuit to cool the liquid. Looks like it is a good design to cool the intake charge. Only concern is I am sure it would put a greater heat load on your refrigerant circuit. May need a larger evaporator during the summer when it is hot and you want cool air inside the car. They don't exactly oversize them from the factory.

 

[NastyGn]

Originally posted by Awesome T
Their conclusion was that spraying an IC did not really help. However, what made a lasting impression on me from the article is the observation that an intercooler acted much more like a heat sink rather than a radiator, and that the heavier the mass that the hot air passes through, the more heat that mass can absorb before becoming saturated.

So, this leads me to think that a large front mount would be more efficient, if their theory is correct, than a stock location due to it being physically larger.

This is true if you are using the IC as a heat sink rather than a
heat exchanger that is really is. The idea is to disipate the heat from the IC. This is true for an air to air or water to air.

An air to air can only get rid of the of the heat as long as the air going through it (from outside) has a delta-P enough to get rid of the heat or enegry from the turbo.

I guess an example would be if the outside temp is 80 then you could guess your FM or stock IC starting temp would be 80 and you start running 100 deg+ air thourgh it the delta-P or difference is 20 deg to start with so you need more area to cool the air to the 80 deg.

A water to air would start out at say 38 to 40 deg on this 80 deg day so the delta-p is now 40 deg and as the temp of the turbo air goes up the difference between the IC and the charge air is bigger, not that you can mantain the big difference for a long time but in the 12 or less seconds it takes to make a run it's bigger than what a FM can mantain.

This is why a FM has to be bigger in size than a water to air because of the difference in starting temp and the ability for the
IC (heat exchanger) to get rid of heat.


If you are compairing a stock air to air with a FM then the theory is correct in that a FM has more area to spread the heat around and the outside air has more area to disipate the heat.

There is more than one way to skin a cat so I guess it's what ever floats your boat hehehe.