Heads vs Cam

[NY Twin Turbo]

I get that completely.I'm still amazed that guys don't realize how fast an iron headed car can go with the right tune and supporting mods

I think a lot do realize this. I am with you on this. But I don't think many believe they can be one of the lucky ones that gets the tune just right without making catastrophic mistakes along the way. And most will make these mistakes.

Why not use the better head and cam. Why not run it a little richer, with a little less boost, and a little less timing, and just be happy?

 

[Mr.Spool]

Why not use the better head and cam.

Depends on the power one wants to make.to me a couple of lbs of boost higher or lower on a gauge doesn't matter the shortblock feels the power regardless of the boost number.

 

[turbo89]

I think a lot do realize this. I am with you on this. But I don't think many believe they can be one of the lucky ones that gets the tune just right without making catastrophic mistakes along the way. And most will.

Why not use the better head and cam. Why not run it a little richer, with a little less boost, and a little less timing, and just be happy?

So we should all invest in ported GN1R's , Roller cams, Champ Race intakes , FAST XFi's , Stage 2 motors, and twins ... because those are all easier to Tune and can tolerate a higher margin of error ?

IF a newbie can't tune a stock motor'd GN .. WTF makes you think he can select the right "GO FAST" parts for his goals, install and set everything up, and then TUNE all the aftermarket crap that
can cause more issues .. lifters, head sealing, rocker geometry, mismatching of parts that throw the entire combo in the crapper.

Come on ...

Its Simple .. its a process... learn how fast you can go with the stock parts and use those until you exceed their efficiency .. I would bet that 85% of the guys that are asking questions like .. HEADS OR CAM haven't gotten to the point that they have exhausted the usefulness of iron heads and flat tappet cams.

Why throw more potential issues in the mix and spend money on things they will never utilize ?

The guy never even posted how much power he is trying to make or how fast he wants to go and were telling him run ported alum heads and roller cams .. Geez

 

[Mr.Spool]

But I don't think many believe they can be one of the lucky ones that gets the tune just right without making catastrophic mistakes along the way. And most will.

I agree that tuning is not for everyone,and do believe in a fuel cushion.pushing a combo should be up to the comfort level of the individual that will be paying for potential damage or parts purchased.learning does require risks as even an experienced tuner can make a mistake.having an 8 sec head with a front mount and xfi on an 11 second car is ever kill and not necessary inmo

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

Depends on the power one wants to make.to me a couple of lbs of boost higher or lower on a gauge doesn't matter the shortblock feels the power regardless of the boost number.

Point taken. But what about the added strain on everything else?

With better heads and cam you get better burn, less boost (cooler) less back pressure, less chance of wiping out a factory cam, bending pushrods, braking rockers, fighting to open valves against 30 psi, and less RPM to make the same power,

You must agree that the physical stress on the upper motor will be less even though the bottom half may feel the same horse power load? No?

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

For ME
i always want more no matter what i have
I made the money wasting mistake of buying what i needed now VS what i was going to need later and that cost me a lot of money.
Most people i hang out with are on the same eventual upgrading power seeking mission and every one of them that got just enough for now ended up throwing money away because they needed to buy the same part later on (smaller vs bigger of X part) and later selling the smaller part for Cents on the Dollar.
If i was to ever do it again i'd be keeping a lot more money in my pocket by simply not buying example --- ten sets of injectors. 42s, 60s, 80s and 120s. the ECM controls them and makes them work just the same.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

So we should all invest in ported GN1R's , Roller cams, Champ Race intakes , FAST XFi's , Stage 2 motors, and twins ... because those are all easier to Tune and can tolerate a higher margin of error ?

Well, I wouldn't go that far!
I'm just saying to stop before you get to that point when you begin to flirt with catastrophe

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

Its Simple .. its a process... learn how fast you can go with the stock parts and use those until you exceed their efficiency .. I would bet that 85% of the guys that are asking questions like .. HEADS OR CAM haven't gotten to the point that they have exhausted the usefulness of iron heads and flat tappet cams.

Agreed. It is a process, and we should all be so eager. Many are not. Too bad actually. But many will never want to exceed their factory head and cam combo before moving ahead to the next level.

Tuning a car with a head and cam combo is the same as tuning a factory set-up. If your gonna learn as you go, might as well be on a fresh set of heads and cam.

 

[turbo89]

Point taken. But what about the added strain on everything else?

With better heads and cam you get better burn, less boost (cooler) less back pressure, less chance of wiping out a factory cam, bending pushrods, braking rockers, fighting to open valves against 30 psi, and less RPM to make the same power,

You must agree that the physical stress on the upper motor will be less even though the bottom half may feel the same horse power load? No?

Great ... so let me reverse this .. do you really think that the added upper motor load by running a few more psi and keeping RPM down is greater than the extra load you put on the bottom end by increasing the RPM band to 6K ?? with roller cams and alum heads ? ( boost is just a number and who cares what it is as long as the setup responds )

Its a lot harder on the bottom end of the motor to RPM it .. with the alum heads and roller cam .
There is nothing wrong with a low rpm motor with proper converter / combination ... they run very well both at the track and in the street and are reliable ..

Wiped stock cam lobe .. sure it happens .. but I bet there is a 10 :1 ratio of roller lifter issues to wiped stock cam lobes , or Aluminum head sealing issues vs iron heads ,
Combination is everything and the point I was trying to make is TUNE is more important then parts and from what the OP has posted his car runs to what he expects it to run .. I don't think
he needs anything .. and that he can FAR exceed his expectations with just a touched up set of irons and a mild flat tappet .. over this just depends on how much $$ he wants to THROW away

 

[Mr.Spool]

less chance of wiping out a factory cam,

this should be a consideration for those that want to use a stronger valvetrain,I used lt1 valvesprings when I had a stock cam into the 10s.

 

[turbo89]

Agreed. It is a process, and we should all be so eager. Many are not. Too bad actually. But many will never want to exceed their factory head and cam combo before moving ahead to the next level.

Tuning a car with a head and cam combo is the same as tuning a factory set-up. If your gonna learn as you go, might as well be on a fresh set of heads and cam.

I don't agree at all.. tuning a factory setup is nothing like tuning an aluminum headed roller cam'd car .. maybe that's why most of the cars with all the cool guy parts are stuck running 11's

 

[Mr.Spool]

braking rockers,

ive alsways used td on an iron head never had an issue even spinning up to 7000 rpm on a 109.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

I don't think
he needs anything .. and that he can FAR exceed his expectations with just a touched up set of irons and a mild flat tappet .. over this just depends on how much $$ he wants to THROW away

Again I agree here. I never said he needs a set of full race ported Champion R heads or some monster hydrolic roller. What you said would do just fine. But that still means pulling the heads and cam. Just as I suggested he do from the beginning.

 

[Mr.Spool]

You must agree that the physical stress on the upper motor will be less even though the bottom half may feel the same horse power load? No?

I do believe the rpm plays a stressfull part on the motor,now the stocker cant really go to high in rpm and be effective.in the past I have been able to make a 10 sec pass at 4800 rpm.high cylinder pressure can be handled with a good shortblock and I like compression

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

I don't agree at all.. tuning a factory setup is nothing like tuning an aluminum headed roller cam'd car .. maybe that's why most of the cars with all the cool guy parts are stuck running 11's

Sure it's not. But I never said he should turn his combo into this sort of thing.

But with a nice set of ported irons and a mild cam, yes it is the same.

 

[Mr.Spool]

There is nothing wrong with a low rpm motor with proper converter / combination ... they run very well both at the track and in the street and are reliable ..

this is very true.

 

[Mr.Spool]

Aluminum head sealing issues vs iron heads ,

I don't think this is talked enough about.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

I don't think this is talked enough about.

Hold up on that one! We may need to start up another thread!

 

[Mr.Spool]

But many will never want to exceed their factory head and cam combo before moving ahead to the next level.

to me that's when they should stop

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

to me that's when they should stop

If we go back to the beginning.......

-He asked about cam or heads.
-I told him both at the same time. But I never said OVERKILL!!!
-Tuning should be about the same.
-He can go plenty fast (maybe 10's) with the factory set-up.
-It will be a little easier with the upgrades.
-We all agree that with the factory set-up he needs to stop before things get stupid.

How's that sum it up? Are we cool on this? Just trying to recap for the readers.