turbo39151
anycoloraslongasitsblack
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2002
DailyDrifter: Cam sensor was replaced with new unit. Can't read scanmaster if car doesn't run...
Granddaddy of no start issues? Experts please come inside...
- Thread starter turbo39151
- Start date
DailyDrifter
The Slow and the Curious
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2007
Key on engine off you should? Is the Calpac good? I would also look at each fuse and make sure there isnt any corrosion on them. Are the grounds good on the back of the head?
DailyDrifter
The Slow and the Curious
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2007
Also, is the wire harness stock or has it been hacked into anywhere?
turbo39151
anycoloraslongasitsblack
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2002
dailydrifter:
1. I don't think my scanmaster is "reading" with key on engine off... I'll need to double check. (IIRC it, the scanamster, would fire up with key on and then turn off since engine was not running)--- Bear in mind my other "known working" ECM was swapped in and there was no change---
2. To clarify, when you say CALPAK do you mean ECM, the Chip, or something else? (there are no other devices in this car)
3. Grounds are all secure
4. I previously pulled and checked all the fuses for ECM, IGN, etc... (all good to go.)
5. This car is nearly all original and untouched- absolutely zero hacking to any of the wires...
1. I don't think my scanmaster is "reading" with key on engine off... I'll need to double check. (IIRC it, the scanamster, would fire up with key on and then turn off since engine was not running)--- Bear in mind my other "known working" ECM was swapped in and there was no change---
2. To clarify, when you say CALPAK do you mean ECM, the Chip, or something else? (there are no other devices in this car)
3. Grounds are all secure
4. I previously pulled and checked all the fuses for ECM, IGN, etc... (all good to go.)
5. This car is nearly all original and untouched- absolutely zero hacking to any of the wires...
Forgive me if you said you have done this.... I didn't go all the way back a reread every post before I replied this time.... but i'd go back to basics.... what does the ECM read for coolant temp before you try and crank it? What does it read for TPS? What does it read for MAF? I assume you should be able to read these from the scanmaster prior to actually cranking it. What is the O2 sensor reading?
The "Calpak" is the little chip that is beside the TT chip that is (as I understand it) the chip that stores the "limp home mode" if the other chip malfunctions. It would probably run like crap if it were running off the calpak chip.
If you do happen to be able to crank it for a few seconds... have someone ready to pull the connector on the cam sensor while the engine is running. If the engine were to clear right up while the cam sensor was unplugged... then it is a cam sensor issue..... but from the sounds of it... you can't keep it running long enought to do this.....
Now we're getting somewhere.
If you go key on engine off, you should still be able to read all of scanmasters data points. If it goes blank after you go key on this is very telling!!!! It means that it's getting NO ALDL data from the ECM. Now, you have to ask yourself why is this???
If you're getting no aldl data, then it could very well be a dead ecm!! Viola, no start!!! But..... Is it dead internally or dead because it's missing one or more of it's power inputs, there are more than one.
Take a look at the attachment and you'll see there's two 12v inputs to power up the ecm.
If you go key on engine off, you should still be able to read all of scanmasters data points. If it goes blank after you go key on this is very telling!!!! It means that it's getting NO ALDL data from the ECM. Now, you have to ask yourself why is this???
If you're getting no aldl data, then it could very well be a dead ecm!! Viola, no start!!! But..... Is it dead internally or dead because it's missing one or more of it's power inputs, there are more than one.
Take a look at the attachment and you'll see there's two 12v inputs to power up the ecm.
turbo39151
anycoloraslongasitsblack
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2002
Blazer406: I don't think the scanmaster was reading with the key on/engine off... I need to double check... (It crossed my mind that this was incorrect but figured I was imagining things since I rarely drive these cars and never have any issues). Can't try any cam sensor tricks since I can't get it to run...
TurboDave: Dead ECM is ruled out as I have swapped a known working one in. I looked at your attachment (thanks btw,), and I only see one 12v wire (A6 pnk/blk) which if I'm not mistaken is the same color as the one I tested at the injector harness AND at the Ignition module-- (Both shows 11.6v) I assume power runs to the ECM first and is then disseminated to the various sensors? Or vice versa.... Can't see both ends of pnk/blk wire having power and the ECM one not having it first... Of course I could be mistaken...
As for the second 12v input, maybe I'm blind or staring right at it but I cannot tell from the attached chart which one that is. Can you clarify?
TurboDave: Dead ECM is ruled out as I have swapped a known working one in. I looked at your attachment (thanks btw,), and I only see one 12v wire (A6 pnk/blk) which if I'm not mistaken is the same color as the one I tested at the injector harness AND at the Ignition module-- (Both shows 11.6v) I assume power runs to the ECM first and is then disseminated to the various sensors? Or vice versa.... Can't see both ends of pnk/blk wire having power and the ECM one not having it first... Of course I could be mistaken...
As for the second 12v input, maybe I'm blind or staring right at it but I cannot tell from the attached chart which one that is. Can you clarify?
It's the orange wire near the bottom of the picture, C16 !! You should NOT assume because you have near 12v on "a" pink/blk wire that it's the same on all of them. Check to make sure there is 12v going into the ECM on C16 and A6
turbo39151
anycoloraslongasitsblack
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2002
Ok, orange was what I was thinking but did not see it delineated in the diagram. I will check both inputs when I get home tonight.
Thanks for the help thus far...
Thanks for the help thus far...
m233roller
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2002
I have spark when I test it.
Plugs are wet when I try to crank and engine tries to start. Not sure if they would be stuck open...
You say you have fuel and spark but also tries to start and run. It will NOT STAY running will gas fouled plugs. Try a new set of plugs.
Plugs are wet when I try to crank and engine tries to start. Not sure if they would be stuck open...
You say you have fuel and spark but also tries to start and run. It will NOT STAY running will gas fouled plugs. Try a new set of plugs.
turbo39151
anycoloraslongasitsblack
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2002
First set of plugs I pulled had gotten fouled. Second set are close I pull them regularly to check... I have a new set on stand-by...
Dave_Harris
Member
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2011
Injector harness may be grounding out on something causing injectors to spray without being told to by the computer. Pull plugs, dry them / clean them, re-install then turn the key on without trying to start the car. Leave key on for a while, turn off key. Pull plugs see if they are wet with fuel.
turbo39151
anycoloraslongasitsblack
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2002
Dave_Harris: interesting idea.. I suppose it can't hurt.. I'll add that to my list of stuff to try...
Have you tried this yet? Is the bolt to the cam sensor tight? If it moved injector timing can be off..
turbo39151
anycoloraslongasitsblack
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2002
87gta-turbo: Nope, not yet. I was hoping the other stuff would work. Also trying to make sure I try to prioritize all of the suggestions so that I won't leave any stone unturned...
Originally, the cam sensor I had in there was good and the bolt was tight... I swapped in a new sensor, adjusted it with the little tool and tightened the bolt.
I will need to loosen it and wait for the "boss" to get home so I can have her crank while I bump the sensor a little at a time..
Once I have some results from this and the other suggestions, I'll post up again.
Originally, the cam sensor I had in there was good and the bolt was tight... I swapped in a new sensor, adjusted it with the little tool and tightened the bolt.
I will need to loosen it and wait for the "boss" to get home so I can have her crank while I bump the sensor a little at a time..
Once I have some results from this and the other suggestions, I'll post up again.
Mine hit... popped... farted.... maybe it cranked... I can't remember.... but it did alot better when I re-set it on #1 compression stroke instead of exhaust stroke. It was a very noticible difference.....at least on my car.
With the ignition key turned ON but engine not cranked the scanmaster should still scroll through each of the parameters. Mine will.
Also listen, if you can get your wife to start the engine like the 3/4 seconds like you did in the Clear flood mode or whatever you did.
You be under the hood and ready to pull the cam sensor connector TIME THE ENGINE STARTS to see if it will stay running you have to be FAST. Is what Mr.Blazer is talking about.
I had to do this when I was on the side of the road but my car had a distinctive backfire which is why I tried this & it turned out to be the cam sensor. The symptoms were the same though, it would run for 3 or 4 seconds then the engine died. You can at least rule the cam sensor out possibly the setting of it also. I've had mine 180* out of phase & it ran though just not great.
I've also had the car crank and shut off within 2 or 3 seconds because of too low of fuel pressure also. Mine will not run on anything below 30lbs. at the fuel rail. Or at least it didn't the last time I tried. So I don't know if thats an issue or not with your stock injectors set up Mine were with 43#inj.
With my 60s & 80s inj. Base setting at 43 when I shut my engine off the injectors hold at least 40lbs. of pressure for like 30 or 40 minutes.
Also listen, if you can get your wife to start the engine like the 3/4 seconds like you did in the Clear flood mode or whatever you did.
You be under the hood and ready to pull the cam sensor connector TIME THE ENGINE STARTS to see if it will stay running you have to be FAST. Is what Mr.Blazer is talking about.
I had to do this when I was on the side of the road but my car had a distinctive backfire which is why I tried this & it turned out to be the cam sensor. The symptoms were the same though, it would run for 3 or 4 seconds then the engine died. You can at least rule the cam sensor out possibly the setting of it also. I've had mine 180* out of phase & it ran though just not great.
I've also had the car crank and shut off within 2 or 3 seconds because of too low of fuel pressure also. Mine will not run on anything below 30lbs. at the fuel rail. Or at least it didn't the last time I tried. So I don't know if thats an issue or not with your stock injectors set up Mine were with 43#inj.
With my 60s & 80s inj. Base setting at 43 when I shut my engine off the injectors hold at least 40lbs. of pressure for like 30 or 40 minutes.
Fuel pressure dropping can also be caused by a non-working check valve in the pump. If it doesn't work the FP will drop off (after you turn the car off)even if the injectors are holding fine. It is not really an issue IMHO weather the check holds or not.... as long as the pump is putting out volume and pressure.
IMHO, at this point.... if the cam sensor does check out.... I'd really want to know what the ECM is seeing from the coolant temp, TPS, O2, and MAF prior to and during cranking. If the scanmaster isn't reading with the key on engine off.... it makes troubleshooting more difficult.
IMHO, at this point.... if the cam sensor does check out.... I'd really want to know what the ECM is seeing from the coolant temp, TPS, O2, and MAF prior to and during cranking. If the scanmaster isn't reading with the key on engine off.... it makes troubleshooting more difficult.
