E85 without intercooler

[Nasty]

Is there a limit to the boost you can run with E85 without using an intercooler. I don't mean taking a turbo beyond is ability. A potential future turbo project will be difficult with an intercooler, so E85 as a fuel may be an option.

Scenerio would be on the lines of a 61 turbo for a 11.5 car without IC.

Thanks

 

[The_Six]

did you read read this http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/e8...ched-fmic-e85-pre-post-alky-setup-inside.html
may be a good place to get some info on that also there is a car in the Hot air section now in the 10s.

 

[Nasty]

Yes, I read it...and no it does not contain the info I was looking for. I am interested in running E85 only without intercooler or alky. The thread covers running E85 with spraying alky and pre-turbo spray. The last poster in that thread pretty much asked the same question as me but did not get a reply.

I remember reading somewhere about it but can't seem to come up with the thread. Thanks for offering the link though.

To give you a better visual of what the goal would be is using the 3800 II with a NA manifold setup. That gives you the ability to run the two fuel system setup but instead of 87/116 octane it would run 87/E85 without a IC (no space & reduced cost). The performance level desired would be relatively low on the first setup, basically an 11.5 car at best (no bar, daily driver).

What I was looking for was some info on what determines the limit of E85 alone with additional alky or an IC.

 

[Hot Air]

See "Met Jamie at B.G." on page 2 of the "E85 Technical Forum"! I think this will be helpful. She ran a hot air GN running E85 without an intercooler or alcohol injection! As you can see, she was running very fast!!!
Conrad
E85 Moderator

 

[murphinator]

I lurk around on a couple forums just because their platforms are past the e85 is it good or bad question and onto OK lets make power with this **** its good lol

this forum is one and fast fords and modular mustangs is another- I am not a ford guy but theres some bad ass e85 stangs and some badass e98 stangs in particular that are removing intercoolers because they are to the point they view them as a restriction , long story short poke around "across enemy lines " as well as you gather info

 

[ghall]

Won't help you right away, but i am putting the final touches on my car and it should be going in a couple of weeks.
the combo is an 87 gn w/ a 4.1 stage motor with a billet BB 76 on e98 or 85 --haven't totally decided yet----with no INT.
I will update when i get it done.


Geoff

 

[49-blues]

Couldn't the lower air temps with an intercooler only help?

 

[Nasty]

Lower temps are good but if the temps are low already, you may see better performance gains from the faster spooling and no restriction of an IC than the lower temps the IC would give you.

Thanks for the replies

 

[The_Six]

Sorry about that thought that was where we had the discussion I was thinking of I didn’t read back threw the thread. In one of the other treads we had a good decoction on about e-85 and octane and burn temps
I’m going to try and clarify what you are seeing in the E-85 section here. Some will agree with me and some won’t so I suggest you read on other sites as well and come to your own conclusion.
We know E-85 has a higher octane rating then C16 so just from that alone we know you should be able to go farther than gas. We also know that it burns cooler so why Alky and an intercooler or alky and no intercooler.
What it comes down to is very few people on this board myself included originally built our cars for E-85. it’s a new concept for the T-Buick world. The norm for us is to run 40 to 60 lb injectors a single 250lph intake pump an inter cooler to keep the air charge cool and alky to help raise the octane and help keep thing cool.
So what do we do when we decide to run e-85 we have a new chip burnt and we fill the tank to give it a try. But we then see our injector duty cycle raise from 80% to 100% what do we do we do what always worked in the past we add a 2nd alky nozzle this is a lot cheaper than the alternative. You can see this is slowly changing now and more E-85 built cars are starting to show up.
What I’m getting at is it’s a lot easier and cheaper to add alky then it is to upgrade the fuel system look at alky on e-85 now like the old 7th injector that was used before alky was the norm.
What you see now is a lot of guys with 60lb and alky that need 80lbs and no alky or 80s and alky that need 120s. The Alky is being used to cheaply stretch the usefulness of the fuel systems we currently have. It’s a lot easier to add alky and 80lbs then it is to have your ECM modified or go to a FAST system so you can run 120s or 160s. Now you could sell of a lot of the stuff and get some money back but then again E-85 is sometimes hard to come buy so it may be a good Idea to keep that intercooler and alky so that if you need to put some 93 in the tank you have the parts to safely run it until you’re on e-85 again.
That being said in your case it sounds like you’re starting from scratch on a hot air car of some sort. So you need to decide before you start how fast you want to go. If you know that 11.5 is as fast as you want to go then build a fuel system that will support 11.5 a good pump with the right sized injectors and be done with it no need for alky or the intercooler. Now if later you really meant high 10s and now find you don’t have enough pump or injector you’re going to have to do what you see here add alky or add more pump and injector and this could be a costly thing to do it you have to have an ECM modded or change to a fast to run bigger injectors and let’s not forget that 2nd fuel pump or bigger fuel pump to feed things or the fuel lines that now are not big enough and need to be replaced.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

A member PM'd me last year about how he converted to E85 and no intercooler and was running 20psi without Alky. But I think he started getting knock after 20psi (not sure on timing) so maybe he'll chime in. BUT, he was probably 8:1 compression, you're WAY beyond that so don't expect those psi #'s.

FWIW, run Alky as the intercooler, you'll gain the cooler charge temp and help yourself out on the fueling. Losing 30% due to the volume E85 needs is hard on your pump and injectors, add Alky and now your making more power, safer and lowering the demand on your fuel system.

 

[turbonut85]

FWIW...My hot air GN is running a consistent 22psi with E-85, no alky, intercooler or knock, with o2's reading .804 at 101mph...

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Cool, what timing are you in 3rd?

I'm positive this year I can up the psi since I got a new AlkyControl pump since my last one was really old and clearly not pumping enough pressure (4-5 years old, oops :redface.

FWIW, I'm adding a 4gph to my Post-Turbo this year from my Pre-Turbo system which runs 50/50. After seeing what my turbo is probably pumping out at 25psi (from 5k to 6k about 310-325 degrees) I'm sure I have some room for more heat absorption in the pipes.

Here's an idea of what might be happening with the 58mm compressors out there on our platform and no Intercooler. Add back the Intercooler to be 85% at the top end for efficiency and pressure drop to be at least 1 and you'll see that density is a huge factor for power. This is why not running ANYTHING to cool your turbo down will make less power so really consider Alky Injection for not only the ability to run more psi, aid in Injector volume, but a denser more powerful charge.

BorgWarner MatchBot

 

[usetaboost]

FWIW...My hot air GN is running a consistent 22psi with E-85, no alky, intercooler or knock, with o2's reading .804 at 101mph...

yeah wuss, when you gonna take your pad out and bump the timing up? Just like woman, you're scared you might like it, LOL

 

[jdpolzin]

Although it works with no IC, I see no reason on our Buicks to remove the IC if you already have one. Most of us run close to 30psi with no knock. If your combo is right, spool up shouldnt be an issue. I like the IC for added protection.

My 4.1 car still has stock fuel lines and only a Walboro 340 in the tank and I'm having no issues so far at 27 psi. I will be replacing the 340 with either my Supra pump set up or an Aeromotive Stealth pump shortly because even though the 340 is holding up, I'm not sure I trust it. This car has absolutely no problem with instant spool up on its 6876 turbo becuase I have a good combo. For me, I like to have my front mount on the car.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I agree JD, the Intercooler does make it easier and safer, but that's no fun.
I guess the thread is just trying new theory's and if someone like myself can come back this Summer and say, "I'm running 27psi without an Intercooler and Meth Injection" that opens a new door which wasn't really out there as an option for those interested. And my FMIC sale funded a big chunk of my E85 conversion so that's kind of nice if you're a budget or weight nut like myself.

I agree that an Intercooler, Meth and E85 is the best combo for high psi, but considering I, and most others, only care to run maybe 30psi total, I'm really close already and the Hot Air guys can dream. LOL

FWIW, I also heard that E98 is going to start to make a push across the US as time goes on. Now that's an Intercooler killer, we don't need one with a fuel that acts like 116-118 and 30psi.

 

[turbonut85]

I also agree with JD. Why take a step backwards by removing the IC? I understand the whole"for the challenge" thing...but i still wouldn't remove the IC, personally.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Actually, I gained so much spool up and compressor efficiency that I wouldn't 100% say it's a step backwards. I literally had to turn out the wastegate rod so many times I forgot, it was at least 6 full turns to get the boost back to the old setting and that was with taking all of the boost out of the Manual Boost Controller spring because I didn't want that much out of the wastegate rod to hurt spool up. It blew my mind how much the piping and FMIC core eat up volume.

If I had an MAT sensor, I believe I'd be able to add more to this debate, because in the end it comes down to MAT temps. If we can get Meth Injection to lower the MAT's down to FMIC levels (which can be calculated in that link I posted above) then we're back to square 1, yet gained a bunch of compressor efficiency, spool up, weight and $ that you don't need to spend.

If it was so one sided I would've just put the FMIC back on.
If I were a Supra running 40psi I never would've taken it off but our 30psi, I believe, is achievable.

 

[usetaboost]

we've had e95 and e98 at a nearby station for quite some time. Never did get around to trying it. I agree with keeping an IC, whether it be a slic or a fm. To me, I would think running a front mount e85 would be the way to go. But if still running a stock ic or a stretch I would think alky would be more beneficial. It would be cool if we could get cylinder temps tested with e85 and alky, or even a back to back test on a dyno would be good enough for me. Tried to talk bison into doing it but he said it would be too much work

 

[Nasty]

I have been off for a while. Thanks for the replys.

Regarding about leaving on an intercooler...

A potential future turbo project will be difficult with an intercooler, so E85 as a fuel may be an option.

Space limitation, not a TR vehicle.

Thanks again everyone.