Cracked "New" Champion heads

[750H.P.V6]

Guy's,

I wanted to see if anyone other than myself has experienced cracking problems with the newest Champion heads. My first set circa 1998 cracked in the usual places around the bolt holes etc. The "New" version heads circa 2001 turned up cracked just this weekend.

I was under the impression that after 3 different casting revisions that Champion had the bugs worked out, it would appear they don't. Currently BOTH my heads are cracked from the spark plug hole across to the adjacent hole running thru the "racing heads" script machined into the side of the head by Champion.

My initial guess without having checked the thickness in this area is that the castings are thin in the area I've described and that Champion has actually compromised the structural integrity even further by machining stress risers (their name) into the head.

I'm sure if I contact Tom he will tell me he "Hasn't heard of anything like this" that's why I'm posting here to see if others are having similar problem. BTW, the plugs, head gaskets and rod bearings are all perfect.

Thanks in advance for any input.

Neal

 

[geno]

I heard Cal cracked 2 this weekend at the nats and it could have cost him his life and car Im sure 35# or more of boost did his in Neal you have a real crack problem dont you Hehe Now im going to be keeping a close eye on mine

 

[BOOSTMANDO]

Cracked champion heads

Neil, I had the same exact problem about two months ago with the leaking coolant. The first set I had leaked everywhere and I heard that if you tried to call Champion they would take forever to fix them. Therefore, I purchase another set of Champion heads, this time the R version, supposedly revised not to have these problems..... Some months later, guess what....leaks on the passenger side where they are engraved saying Champion head...same as you posted. My solution for the time being was to JB Weld a plate over top were it says Champion heads...This may sound funny and foolish...but it has worked up to now...and I did it right on the car. I would also tell you that I run evans coolant in my car so there is no pressure to build up.....Do you have a leak or a crack????? Right now I thank JB Weld.....Maybe when they inscibed the head they went in to deep????? I don't know....Good luck....

 

[750H.P.V6]

Champion quality is job #1

BOOSTMANDO,

It appears to be a leak and a crack also. There is a well defined waterfall mark from one spark plug hole to the other in the same area as you've described. For right now I think I'll try to weld repair them and the when TA gets their heads into production I'll get a set of those. The only other possibility is to go Stage II.

Neal

P.S. Gene, you're right my crack habit is getting out of control.

 

[LikeMy6]

You would think that Tom would have these Heads perfect by now! Especially since the TA head will be out soon(hopefully) and that might run him out of buisness Maybe he should put his logo in the front of the head where the accesories bolt up.


Frank

 

[John Wilde]

Did you ever see the set the Gallina's destroyed?
This was a couple years back on duttweiler's dyno.
It does not sound like they like higher hp.

 

[JCotton]

I can't say anything bad about my heads, 11\2 year old R heads from the latest version. I have around 500 passes on them from 10.0's to 9.40's. they've been flawless, never lost a drop of coolant since installing them. As I sit here and read of the few guys that have had problems, I wonder if instead of slamming Tom for stepping up to the plate to support us Buick guys, if maybe we could try and find a common denominator as to what a few have experienced for problems. I have always shared my experience and spent many hours talking with Tom over the years to solve any issues that have arose, I feel as Tom hasaddressed many of the issues that have come to light. Always he has tried to improve his product, I know some guys haven't always received satisfactory responses from him, but that is not the case all the time. I have visited his shop more than once and it is incredible what they have down there for work. It was only then that I could see how hard they work, yet how backlogged they are. Anyone with a performance shop can appreciate what it is like to deal with racers, we all need our parts back yesterday. Now I am not trying to start a battle royale here, just some positive input on improving a great product. As for the Duttweiller story, believe me there is more to that story than meets the eye.... I pose this question to whomever would like to respond, what are the detail involving your problems, why haven't mine cracked and yours has, lets see if we can come to a logical reason and go from there.
Now I want you all to know, since I have posted this, I'm sure the next time to the track will result in my heads cracking in half and no explanation why....... But I don't think that will happen.

 

[750H.P.V6]

Jack,

You make a valid point that not everyone is having problems with Champions heads. There are many guys who will never see a H.P. level that will cause any sort of problems. Street/ strip guys with 500-600 H.P. applications are probably fine.

Personally the reason I posted this in the Stage II forum rather than in the General Tech Forum was to see how many guys that are running Champions heads at high H.P. levels (lets say above 800 H.P. for sake of argument) are having problems.

Based on what I've see in my area and on my own car as well as many conversations I've had with folks from all over there are under lying casting problems. Most of the other machining issues from the early heads have been addressed although the premature guide wear issue has never been resolved either.

I've dealt with Tom and have no doubt that he is very busy but he also intentionally misleads people. Whether its in regard to the problems their having by stating he's never seen this before or by making false statements about product shipments etc.

I'm glad you've had a positive experience with Champion and their products but most others have not. I'm just looking forward to a viable alternative to Champions heads so I don't have to keep pulling my engine to repair the heads.

Neal

 

[JCotton]

Neal says,
"You make a valid point that not everyone is having problems with Champions heads. There are many guys who will never see a H.P. level that will cause any sort of problems. Street/ strip guys with 500-600 H.P. applications are probably fine."


If I read your signature correct, you are running low 10's with these? I've run as fast as 145mph, mid to tickling low 9's. For me I've had zero problems, lets try to keep this discussion to the subject you started, the heads. Are these the "R" version heads you are using or the regular 14 bolts, ported, unported, how much boost, stage 2 or stock block? How many passes, etc..... ? How bout some info, also, how bout who else is having problems, I'd like to fix any problems, or give Tom the opportunity to fix anything that may need improving. I have said it before, I'll say it again, I have gone to bat for more than one customer or fellow Buick enthusiast, to help solve a problem with many Buick vendors, sometimes I can help, sometimes I can't. I have just as much money invested in my heads as you, if there is a problem, I want to see it fixed.
Since you've put a number on HP levels at 800hp, I believe Cal is making somewhere around 11-1200hp. Thats not too bad, I've never seen him complain about Champion heads. Have you spoken to Tom yet about your recent problem, maybe if he could see your heads he could better understand what is happening and do something to help you.

 

[GNSCOTT]

Seems like evertime there is a problem with Champion heads, it is posted, very much like this one. To say that MOST guys running these levels have problems with their heads is a little irresponsible. I understand why this was posted, and have no problem with it, but to tell people here that MOST guys who run at this level with Chamion heads, in my eyes I haven't seen it. You really have to be careful with your words when you talk about someones livleyhood. I hate to lose one of the honest Buick vendors, even though I don't use his product.

 

[John Wilde]

Jack,

With all due respect and much thanks for going to bat for us buicks guys,the romur is Cal almost destroyed his car because his heads failed @ BG. They had failed a couple of months ago as well.
Based on your cars weight you are making less than 900 hp.
It seems and I may be WRONG that they fail at the 1000hp and up level.

Please don't read this wrong I am not calling you a liar or wrong.
I am just telling you what I have seen.

BTW I would love to hear about your solid roller when you get a chance

 

[John Wilde]

God bless champion and other vendors that stick with such a small market as us buicks. They should not be bashed, but they should also not be protected "IF" it is proven that their product
is dangerous. I "am not" saying the champion heads are.
I am just saying that I have heard of more than one set failing
at 1000hp levels. I have never heard of a stage 2 head failing in the same way. Maybe this is just my lack of experience.

Sorry for the tone of the first email.
I think it came out wrong.

 

[750H.P.V6]

Jack,

I'm not sure what you're implying in regard to H.P. levels. Based on my own combo with a vehicle weight in excess of 3700 lbs and a trap speed of 136 + M.P.H. I don't have a trans brake so the E.T.'s are less than impressive and as you well know M.P.H is the true measure of H.P. You do the math.

http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm

Personally everyone I know who has had an early set of Champions on a Stage I or II motor has cracked them. We have 3 sets of the new Champion heads in service locally on Stage motors mine included. Mine have the most passes at less than 20. So you can see my concern right?

My understanding is that the "R" heads have the oversize valves and come ported from Champion. I don't have these heads. I have the new casting heads with the thicker deck surface etc. It's my belief these heads have the same castings as the "R" heads.

I noticed you state you have 500 passes on your heads in the year and a half you've owned them. Man, you've been making better than 6 passes every weekend. The weather must have been really mild this winter.

Neal

 

[geno]

JCotton Wrote

I'd like to fix any problems, or give Tom the opportunity to fix anything that may need improving. I have said it before, I'll say it again, I have gone to bat for more than one customer or fellow Buick enthusiast, to help solve a problem with many Buick vendors, sometimes I can help, sometimes I can't. I have just as much money invested in my heads as you, if there is a problem, I want to see it fixed.


Can you take care of that valve guide issue while your at it Jack because i want to see it fixed Hehe LOL I hope you can help Neal out on this Jack 100% Cotton

 

[JCotton]

Ok, pretty obvious from the responses, the few posts here aren't interested in trying to help themselves or others. Just another typical slamfest, so I'll check out now. I asked some questions about combos, received no answers.
As for the number of passes I make every year, I race my car just about every weekend, and many TT nites at the local track, probably average around 4-6 passes everytime I go to the track, minimum. Attended just about evry buick event thats put on, both small scale events and large, there's a bunch of them.... As for Genos heads, did you send them back to Tom to repair? As for Cal, maybe he can chime in when he returns from vacation about his situation. One more thing, I consistently ran 9.70's at around 135-36mph on 21lbs of boost, with a 200r, off the foot brake in a 3700lb car, 3 years ago Neal. Oh ya, with a 76BB turbo with a 3bolt housing.
good luck,

 

[GNSCOTT]

I think this thread should be deleted or at least locked and start it over again. John said it best here...God bless champion and other vendors that stick with such a small market as us buicks. They should not be bashed, but they should also not be protected "IF" it is proven that their product
is dangerous. I "am not" saying the champion heads are.
I am just saying that I have heard of more than one set failing
at 1000hp levels. I have never heard of a stage 2 head failing in the same way. Maybe this is just my lack of experience.

I think if everyone wants to find out if a product is dangerous at a certain level we should ALL try to find out how many cars with Champion heads are running at this level, and how many cracked, and why they cracked.

I think its also just as important that guys a little under the 1000hp level like Jack was last year if you want to truley determine where the problem is. I assume we are talking RWHP since at the motor where the heads are CAL is problably closer to 1200hp.

BTW, I have no stake in any of this, I don't plan on buying a Champion head nor do I plan on buying a TA head. I do appreciate them both taking a chance and developing/building these products so we do have choices. If it wasn't for Champion, most stage guys would have no choice but to run a stage 2 head.

 

[Brutal Six]

Jack,

Based on where I'm at now I'll fix my heads myself since I don't have 6 months to get it done by Champion. Originally when I started this thread I just wanted some input to see who was having problems but now it's been hijacked I doubt we can get it back on track.

Do me a favor though, why don't you go to you shoebox of timeslips and see how many you really have in the past 18 months. My guess is that it's less than 100 but it sort of a moot point now huh? When the TA heads hit the market the proof will be there for all to see just how good the Champion product is.

Thanks for the help

Neal

 

[bruce]

For any given part there is a limit.
If the Champion heads limit is the 1,000 HP level, then that's the limit.

Only if there is enough market for someone to redesign, or change an existing design with anything be done about it.

Treating the limit of the head as anything other then just the limit is pointless. It's not that they are faulty, it's just you've reached the level of where you can get them to fail.

I don't recall anyone saying any race part is perfect or unbreakable.

Just from the sidelines, it would seem like getting a full set of notes together about how they are breaking and at what HP level, and getting together with Champion is what's needed.

 

[Brutal Six]

Bruce,

I agree. Also I don't claim to be at the 1000 H.P. level but I'm concerned by the cracks I've found in the heads I have. I would suspect the begining failure I'm seeing at around 800 H.P. could prove to be catastropic at a much higher power level. I haven't spoken to Cal but wouldn't be suprised if his heads let go in the same area. This is just my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.

Neal

 

[GNSCOTT]

Instead of running the head you hate,why not run your only other choice? You can get stage 2 heads for half the price.