Any advantage to TTY head bolts?

blackbuick87

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2002
Everyone says use ARP's but is there any advantage to using stock replacements?

I would think the need to retourque the heads would be eliminated. Also wouldnt they seal better in the water jackets, since the bolts are not being retourqed after the sealant hardens?
 
none-a set of aprs= $65.00 reuseable vs a set of ttys=$100. non-reuseable-you figure.
 
Originally posted by 49-blues
none-a set of aprs= $65.00 reuseable vs a set of ttys=$100. non-reuseable-you figure.
Where are you getting TTY's for $100?:eek: Last set I put into place cost less than $40.00 to do both sides from NAPA.
 
gm-dealer in staten island charged me for each bolt seperately for over $100.00 in total-never again.
 
Goto the gnttype.org archives and do a search for Robert Caruth, he had direct involvement with the Buick v6's. There is a lot of valuable info from him.

Here is one response from him on head bolts (I hope no one minds):

"Hi all

This one is in my ball park (Head bolts)so here goes.

Torque to yield means there is permanent elongation of the bolt. As an example, if you measure bolt lengths before installation, torque them to spec. remove them and measure again,and if the bolt has yielded it will be longer. A TTY spec. usually says .002 to .012 in. permanent elongation. Thus the material has been yielded. As long as it has been yielded ,the clamp load is determined by the strength of the bolt material not by the torque on it. (Standard specs. stretch the bolts but they will return to their original length when loosened.) This method (tty)has the least amount of variation of any other fastening processes. We center bolts (put a dimple in the ends) measure them with ball
micrometers then torque up these bolts and remove them again to remeasure. 1 engine per day , per engine series to verify our equipment is doing it’s job.(Also monitor torque and angle on every engine built) We use computer controlled DC electric fastening equipment.

Tty is not a process easily duplicated in your garage. That is why so many people switch bolts and use straight torque. Unfortunately just torque has the most variation and as a result you get the most uneven clampload of any fastening processes. Our spec now ( on Series II) is torque + angle into yield which is easier to approximate with hand tools. If any one is interested I can provide the details. I believe the last update of the “G” body service manual calls out a torque + angle + angle.( 25ftlbs. + 90 degrees + 90 degrees (of rotation)) done sequentially.

TTY bolts have a large material safety factor built into them, they do get reused on standard rebuilds, BUT this is not a reuse over and over forever type thing. If you don’t know the history of your engine or change head gaskets frequently the ONLY safe thing to do is Change bolts. Whether GM or aftermarket is a matter of preference I guess. IMOP if people better understood TTY, clampload and fastening in general they could get satisfactory results from tty bolts. All Buick V-6’s have had TTY head bolts from the factory since the early 1980’s.

Hope this has made TTY clear as mud for every one.
Sorry about all the BW

Robert Caruth GMPT Flint V-6"
 
I just rebuilt my engine and used Milodon head bolts, 8740 chrommolly steel, 170,00 PSI. $38.00 shipped. Your going to find varied opinions on retorqing heads. The last few posts I read had water jacket problems after retorquiong, might have been the sealant. If you gp yo ARP's web page they recomend retorqing all their fasteners 5cycles to get the proper bolt stretch???
 
Originally posted by Lugnut28
I just rebuilt my engine and used Milodon head bolts, 8740 chrommolly steel, 170,00 PSI. $38.00 shipped. .....

Do these bolts have 12 point heads or 6 point?
 
I was curious about after retourqing, does the permatex stay flexible enough to maintain its seal in the water jackets? It would seem you are sacrificing your seal in the jackets to maintain the clamping pressure on the head.

And how much permatex goes on the bolts? Does the permatex serve as a lubricant for the threads? Sorry about all the Q's

Eric thanx for the archive search. Very interesting
 
I believe that I had non-TTY on my '85 block from the factory, as there was no "neck down" area, and there was an indention on the head. A service bulletin from GM was my only means of identification.

However, I went with the 170 K psi ARP bolts, and used the ARP teflon sealer in the threads, which supposedly, never hardens, and maintains the seal after retorque. Additionally, I'll add the "black pepper" looking radiator sealer after I get the engine in and running for a little extra insurance.
 
My thinking also, Jesse.

Haven't used bolts on mains or heads since early-70s.

Just wondered if someone had "trouble" with them, as I've never heard of any.

Like you said, lots of pluses to using studs versus bolts.

:)
 
Re: Any Downside to Studs?

Originally posted by Two Lane
Why not use ARP studs, instead of bolts?


What is the answer to this question?

Mine is that studs on a street car with A/C is a bad move. The studs are trashed if a head needs to come off in the car.

Second reason is I can find no verification that with our stock 8 bolt heads that head gaskets are less prone to damage with studs over bolts.

Having replaced many head gaskets, most are blown at the top or bottom of the cylinder. This is the longest span between bolts [or studs]. So in my opinion, the head is deforming, or lifting, and the gasket damaged. This is regardless of clamping force - stud or bolt no difference.

A stud may take more "pounding" than a bolt w/o moving, but by that time the gasket is history anyway.

There may be a good reason for studs in a stock block used for racing that is torn down couple [or more!] times a season. But on a street car, makes no sense to me.

Maybe another 2 or 3 dozen head gasket changes and I may see things differently, but for now, this is my opinion.:)
 
jesse had stated in an earlier post that arp now has head studs with a hex head that can be removed after the engine has been mounted in a car.
 
Originally posted by 49-blues
jesse had stated in an earlier post that arp now has head studs with a hex head that can be removed after the engine has been mounted in a car.

The studs I had to remove the other day were VERY stubborn. After welding the nuts to the studs, took LOTS of force on a long breaker bar to remove them. Had to weld one bolt again after it broke loose. Wonder if a hex socket would have removed them???
 
Originally posted by 49-blues
jesse had stated in an earlier post that arp now has head studs with a hex head that can be removed after the engine has been mounted in a car.
Yea, I don't know what Nick uses but the ones I just put in my motor can be removed with an Allen so I don't understand why they would be trashed if you have A/C. I don't have mine hooked up but I can remove them all and take the head right out. With studs you get more consistent torque values since the load is being distributed in two directions. I also didn't verify this yet but the threaded region on the studs is said to be longer also. I will verify this when I put the 4.1 together.
 
Originally posted by Nick Micale
The studs I had to remove the other day were VERY stubborn. After welding the nuts to the studs, took LOTS of force on a long breaker bar to remove them. Had to weld one bolt again after it broke loose. Wonder if a hex socket would have removed them???
Was loc-tite used? With GM thread sealant on the threads going into the block and some decent Moly on the nutted:D end they come out like butter. That and following the rule of putting them in hand tight to start with.
 
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