Alky for mid 10s car?

G McCall

Member
Joined
May 30, 2001
Is anyone using alky for thier car with approximately the following options ?.
72 Ib injectors, PT 72 Turbo with ATR 4-bolt headers, dual stage fuel pumps, M&A heads, Bowling Green Intake and doghouse, 70mm throttle body, front mount intercooler, DFI ignition, original block with J&E pistons, 224 roller cam etc etc. (tired of listing) (No times with this combo, but the day is coming.)

I'm thinking on adding a SMC alky kit. Do I need 1 or two nozzles, and will the alky work with this combo ?. I want to drive on the street more and I'm tired of running race gas so much. I'm been using a mix of 50x50 pump gas and B-33.
Anyone ?
 
Alky will definately work, but you won't be able to run mid 10s with it. With your combo, just guessing, I would say you could come close to high 10s. Thats not bad for a 93 octane street bruiser.
 
Gentlemen,
If this helps with my question::I'm just trying to enhance my street performance. If alky can help with three + ILbs of boost with pump gas it would be worth it to me. I'm not trying to run any certain times with it. I always run race gas at the track.
 
Yes it will.

You can even spray alky on top of the race gas :)

But yes,it enables you to run and drive your car like if you were running 108 and not worry bout ruining O2 sensors.I would from my limited experience with it suggest a lower timing chip to curb any transitional knock high timing chips can have while the alky is not spraying.Like when you stab the throttle...it'll knock till the alky catches up.Higher timing chips will tend to flare the knock sensor more than lower timing chips.
 
Reason I said that is because with my experience with alky, you can't run what you do on race gas. Your going to have to run at least a couple of pounds of boost less. He is running mid 10s on race gas. If he runs 93 octane and alky, nothing else changed, I don't think he will hit mid 10s. He's going to have to back off the timing and run less boost. How much timing and boost is what he will have to find out. I do think you might be able to run high 10s with nothing else changed other than alky, 93, timing and boost. High 10s on 93 octane is awsome!!!! I'd like to see him prove me wrong.
 
What do you you mean by low timing chip, 18-19*? I have to say, and this is with expereince, that my extender and T+ is the ultimate set up with alky. And yes you can run higher timing with it with no problems. My extender is set up for 23* ( this is the standard street chip ) and on pump gas alone I can run 19psi with no knock at all. I had a JL93 with less timing and it would knock all over the place. With my extender and alchy, I can run the same timing with 23psi on 93 octane and still no knock at all. The only transitional knock I've seen is .5* and that was on the kickdown which in my book doesn't count. Don't have any new times on my new set up( i.e, turbo, injectors, etc. ) yet, I'm expecting something in the 11.75 range. Like I said, the extender and T+ with the alky is a very hot ticket.


Donnie
 
Alchy is worth 100 octane With pump gas. You can answer your own question by putting 100 octane gas in the tank. Also, I'm not exactly sure but a fuel mix containing a 30 percent mix of toulene is roughly that. If you want to know for sure, e-mail DConner. He is a lab chemist or something like that.
 
Alky has got to be worth more than 100 octane. How else could people like myself be running 26* timing and 23psi??!! I have no data or facts, but it seems that 100 octane wouldn't be enough to support such conditions?
 
I'm with Razor on this with respect to lower timing chips. I can't run anything over 20 degrees and even that is pushing it.

Maybe it has something to do with TTA's and the 3.27 gears. Too much load in high gear?

I know my car just doesn't like timing, never has.
 
Well...two weeks ago we burned a chip for my car with 26 degrees of timing and had my turbo at 24lbs of boost with no probs whatsoever.We put the recovery rate for the knock set to high for quick recovery and that worked well.And this is a stock turbo/injectors with o2's in the 790 range confirmed with direct scan and an EGT meter at 1550.

But as TTA1387 said..safe is to run a 100 octane chip.They seem to work well together as a drop in and dont fool with kind of deal.

Again its seat time with the alky.No majic here.Its a lot of fuel pressure/alky amount/alky mix/when to start spraying.Those are the majic four variables.Coupled with the chip :)

I still have a long way to go with this stuff.Havent played/experimented with methanol,water,mixing....some my bartendering is still to come.Only drinking straight denatured at this time.

G McCall..once you try the alky....you wont go back :)
I'll put money on it :cool:
 
Alcohol is worth more than 100 octane, more like 108 or so. I don't belive that anyone could run 23-24psi on 100 and it not knock like an Insurance salesman on crack.


Donnie
 
Its not the octane in the alcohol that lets us run high boost, its the cooling effects of the alky that let us run boost. Alky isn't extremely high in octane, like some have said its only about 100 octane.
 
I know this will stir up the thread.

Before reaction engines basically took over aviation, av gas was rated in two figures. The highest I remember was 115-145. Others were 100-130 & even others that I never paid much attention to. The difference in the two octane ratings was without & with alcohol injection. I'm sure we in the TR community haven't yet approched a difference of 30 octane points with alcohol.
As BLACK6PACK stated the difference in octane ratings (resistance to knock) with alcohol comes about because of the cooling effect of the alcohol rather than any real octane boost.
I'd love to see a 30 point difference with alcohol, however the complexity of aircraft ijection, makes it unlikely we'll see much more than the 15 - 20 we're now getting.
HTH
 
Black6pack wrote:

"Alky isn't extremely high in octane, like some have said its only about 100 octane."

Actually denautured and methanol are up ther in octane.If you look at the octane booster recipes...tolulene,xylene,etc...alcohol was in the 118-120 range...by itself.It burns too thats why we see an increase in o2's...Water is another story..

And I whole hardedly agree on its cooling effect.Control it and you are dialed in ;)
 
Originally posted by Razor
Black6pack wrote:

"Alky isn't extremely high in octane, like some have said its only about 100 octane."

Actually denautured and methanol are up ther in octane.If you look at the octane booster recipes...tolulene,xylene,etc...alcohol was in the 118-120 range...by itself.It burns too thats why we see an increase in o2's...Water is another story..

And I whole hardedly agree on its cooling effect.Control it and you are dialed in ;)

I agree completly there's no doubt about the coolong properties. Denatured is what I was refering to, because that's all I've run. Whatever it is, it sure does work and I guess that's all that matters.

To answer one of the original questions, get the dual nozzle set-up. Steve recommends it on cars approaching 11's or faster.


Donnie
 
ViciousV6 The 100 octane rating is what I tell people because it had been the consensus in the past. That may be a conservative number, but I'm not going to state higher, then have somebody E-Mail me that they blew their engine on a 110 chip!..:)

I've run 26 lbs through stock heads, and no knock with alchy at 20* timing. That doesn't mean everybody can do that. There are many reasons.

Psi is just a reference number. With cam, good flowing heads, etc, you can put a 25 percent more powerfull charge in there, at the same boost level. For instance I am putting 320 gps in my enging (air flow in grams per second) at 15 psi, since I went to the GN-1 alum heads, and roller rockers. Before (with the stock heads) I was putting 250 gps in at 15 psi. That much more power can easily pop a HG, if you detonate..

Your 26 PSI may not be an indication of how much air and fuel you are putting in. Maybe your heads are mismatched, cam is worn, or the cat. is partially pluged. Any one of these factors could restrict the intake. You may be putting as much air in as somebody else (using stock heads) is putting in at 20 psi.

So somebody running a different combination would say "Hey I'm only to run 20 psi, with alchy" and be making the same power as you. He could even be making more power than you. It would come down to quarter mile times, to see who was making the most power. Dennis Hogan ran 10.97 with alchy injection, at 18 psi. He uses alum heads however.

Your high timing may mean you are running rich, and flooding the chambers with lots of alchy, and water. In that case the car wouldn't run right with the timing turned down. I have actually lost power this way, though the boost gage is really up there, the combustion isn't as good...Timing isn't everything either. Just part of the combination..

I have blown 2 headgaskets making the error of comparing alpples to oranges. Psi numbers are fine, but aif flow is a better number. A scan tool is a must. I don't want anyone else to make the same mistake, so this is why I tend to be conservative. It's all in the combination, since everyones is different, I would never tell someone to throw a 110 chip in and feel like they are safe. Even with alchy.

Tip: I load my gas with toulene, then tune to a safe level. Then through adding a few gallons at a time, (every few days during the normal course of driving) I slowly dilute the mixture until I am running on pure pump gas. If knock appears, it is a little bit at a time. After a week or two, I know it is safe..:)

Donnie Are you dropping out any fuel at wot running the de-natured? I am running the Translator+ and I know there is a way to have it programmed for that, for people running a lot of de-natured at WOT. I like the De-natured, and will be tunning my new combination for it. When I used it before, I was getting no 'transitional knock. How about you?

BTW the cold air intake works great! :)
 
All very good points, Tim. When you refered to the timing issue, were you saying that my 26* of timing is too much? I've been considering having Testa burn me a 23-24* chip and upping the boost a bit. The current chip is a Joe Lubrant 110. I ran 11.82@116+ with this combo last year, and that was hellish-hot weather. Completely stock longblock w/ PTE-44, CAS V4, 009's, etc.......
 
ViciousV6, I's hard to suggest anything to somebody that is running this kind of killer times, with as few mods as you are working with! I'm envious! :)

My point was that sometimes you can get too much alchy in there, and loose power, but I think you have squeezed that combination pretty well! If you ever manage to get more power out of it, I'd like to know how you did it! ;)

You are not out of injector, but the 49 is probabbly reaching the point of diminishing returns, so cranking the boost would probabbly just slow you down. Porting the heads seems to be the next step. The 44 is a great turbo, with quick spool, and with improved air flow, still has another half second in it

If it were me, I'd be satisfied with those times. Few people have gone much faster with what you are working with! Good job!
 
Top