A New Drag Anti Lag System

[Alky V6]

I was going by what you posted. I quoted it below for reference. I was just wondering why you'd find this interesting and what it would prove?

There are times when I do a test just for the heck of it. It may not grant any significance at the time, but, you never know what the future holds. I find myself sometimes going back over old data of tests to confirm something that was happening back then, that maybe now I'm starting more to understand the significance of.
This recent discovery is a perfect example. In the past, I had no idea what these erratic lean spikes were trying to tell me. Now I do.

Plain and simple. I thought it would be interesting to directly compare two totally opposite schools of thought. It really isn't any more complicated than that. The results could show advantages or shortcomings in either example, and could maybe help either side work on those advantages or shortcomings that might be discovered.

Look at it this way. A setup that typically relies on having to pre-spool the turbo before he stages the car, now has to work on a tuneup for a dead stop, idle start. Not saying there is anything to discover here, but what if he did? That would have to help him out in the class that he races the car in. Right?
I'm just asking some fellas to put their thinking cap on and come up with a solution to a problem that they may have never considered.

Think about what went through my head when I discovered that I had 2 weeks to figure out a launch routine for my car in an arm drop scenario. WITHOUT A CHANCE TO TEST IT. It was a little nerve racking, but was actually exciting too. And how do you think I felt when I picked a dial in of 9.50 out of the hat, and then went out and did a 9.56 on the first real pass. How exciting do you think that was.

This is really more for the other guys than for me, if the challenge sparks any interesting in the warriors out there.

 

[Chevota]

When's the next test date Don?

 

[Alky V6]

When's the next test date Don?

January 9th. I'll be working on the sportsman tree start. Any idle start tuning test dates will be kept top secret for obvious reasons. :biggrin:
Are you bringing the beast out? If so, I'll make sure to mention it to the fella in charge of prepping the track.

 

[Alky V6]

I am interested to see how your combination works AFTER you let go of the trans-brake.

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. I just realized that you might have a question about something. Could you elaborate on your above statement? What is it that you would be interested in? If I know more about what you're looking for, I may be able to satisfy your interest on this.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

There are times when I do a test just for the heck of it. It may not grant any significance at the time, but, you never know what the future holds. I find myself sometimes going back over old data of tests to confirm something that was happening back then, that maybe now I'm starting more to understand the significance of.
This recent discovery is a perfect example. In the past, I had no idea what these erratic lean spikes were trying to tell me. Now I do.

Plain and simple. I thought it would be interesting to directly compare two totally opposite schools of thought. It really isn't any more complicated than that. The results could show advantages or shortcomings in either example, and could maybe help either side work on those advantages or shortcomings that might be discovered.

Look at it this way. A setup that typically relies on having to pre-spool the turbo before he stages the car, now has to work on a tuneup for a dead stop, idle start. Not saying there is anything to discover here, but what if he did? That would have to help him out in the class that he races the car in. Right?
I'm just asking some fellas to put their thinking cap on and come up with a solution to a problem that they may have never considered.

Think about what went through my head when I discovered that I had 2 weeks to figure out a launch routine for my car in an arm drop scenario. WITHOUT A CHANCE TO TEST IT. It was a little nerve racking, but was actually exciting too. And how do you think I felt when I picked a dial in of 9.50 out of the hat, and then went out and did a 9.56 on the first real pass. How exciting do you think that was.

This is really more for the other guys than for me, if the challenge sparks any interesting in the warriors out there.

Gotcha.

There is a big difference in leaving from an idle of 1200 rpm vs leaving against the converter at 3000rpm. A pro-tree car never leaves from an idle, or even stages at an idle. The work to get the cars on the 2 step starts at the point where the converter catches up to the engine which is usually around 3000-3400 rpm. This rpm range is where the pro-tree guy does his testing.

 

[Alky V6]

Gotcha.

There is a big difference in leaving from an idle of 1200 rpm vs leaving against the converter at 3000rpm. A pro-tree car never leaves from an idle, or even stages at an idle. The work to get the cars on the 2 step starts at the point where the converter catches up to the engine which is usually around 3000-3400 rpm. This rpm range is where the pro-tree guy does his testing.

Well then, what about this rule change. We have so many rules to work with here . What if we allow an off idle rpm start, but strictly, zero boost above what the engine would generate as if it were n/a? I think that would make the contest a little more fun. What do you think?
The cars would need to be fitted with datalogging capability so that map readings could be checked before the contest, and after.

My head is already swelling with tuning ideas you guys could use with this rule change. Hmmm. I think we should limit the rpm that both cars can start from by using the lowest obtainable rpm that either car can achieve at WOT, no nitrous and no boost. That would be about 2700-2900 for my car. For the higher stalled car, that would allow a pretty fair flash stall speed, so I don't see much of a disadvantage with that. What do you think?

 

[Alky V6]

So let me get this straight. A seven second car, against a 9 second car, both starting from 2800 rpm. I think someone just wants to make sure they don't get embarrassed here.

Is there anything else you'd like me to hand to you on a silver platter that might insure a win for the other side?

 

[Otto J]

So let me get this straight. A seven second car, against a 9 second car, both starting from 2800 rpm. I think someone just wants to make sure they don't get embarrassed here.

Is there anything else you'd like me to hand to you on a silver platter that might insure a win for the other side?

Lets see,your car is 400#s lighter with a 300HP nitrous kit on methanol with a T5 framed 91mm thumper turbo that is rated at probably 150 HP or more???? I think you should be setting them out!!!!!

 

[Alky V6]

Lets see,your car is 400#s lighter with a 300HP nitrous kit on methanol with a T5 framed 91mm thumper turbo that is rated at probably 150 HP or more???? I think you should be setting them out!!!!!

Having a turbo that's rated for a particular hp level, and having an engine configuration that can take full advantage of that capacity are two totally different things. You of all people should realize that. Are you not familiar with the basic specs of my engine by now?

The nitrous system is rated at 300 on gasoline, but how much is actually producing work in the cylinder? I've calculated it to be around 50 to 75 hp. Are you trying to tell me that a 50 to 75 shot of nitrous to try to help spool a monster turbo on a small V6 is an unfair advantage against a 7 second car? I can't believe this. You guys must be really running scared here.

 

[Otto J]

Having a turbo that's rated for a particular hp level, and having an engine configuration that can take full advantage of that capacity are two totally different things. You of all people should realize that. Are you not familiar with the basic specs of my engine by now?

The system is rated at 300, but how much is actually producing work in the cylinder? I've calculated it to be around 50 to 75 hp. Are you trying to tell me that a 50 to 75 shot of nitrous to try to help spool a monster turbo on a small V6 is an unfair advantage against a 7 second car? I can't believe this. You guys must be really running scared here.

LOL, there are guys running smaller motors with less cylinders that have turbos that size and bigger,( small blocks that have twint 91s are actually only using 4 cylinders to drive each turbo)so i would have to think if you tune it and turn it up you COULD take full advantage of that turbos capabilities,if not why would you purchae a turbo you cannot take advantage of?
as far as the nitrous who knows if you have a ssecret panic button you can hold the entire pass if need be
Most of the time on turbo cars the nitrous will give the motor more than its rated power as it cools in the intake charge tremendously(with methanol not so much)

 

[Alky V6]

If there is any specification on my engine or car that anyone is interested in knowing, just ask. I will give you an honest answer. This contest should be a cake walk for most of you. I guess you fellas have a lot more respect for my car than I thought. Even more than me!

 

[Otto J]

So let me get this straight. A seven second car, against a 9 second car, both starting from 2800 rpm. I think someone just wants to make sure they don't get embarrassed here.

Is there anything else you'd like me to hand to you on a silver platter that might insure a win for the other side?

Are you saying to make it a fair race we should have someone like Don Cruz bring his high 8 sec 70mm turbo car to race to make it fair against what you have?

 

[HOT ROD-GN]

Are you saying to make it a fair race we should have someone like Don Cruz bring his high 8 sec 70mm turbo car to race to make it fair against what you have?

PREACH IT (OTTO)

 

[Alky V6]

LOL, there are guys running smaller motors with less cylinders that have turbos that size and bigger,( small blocks that have twint 91s are actually only using 4 cylinders to drive each turbo)so i would have to think if you tune it and turn it up you COULD take full advantage of that turbos capabilities,if not why would you purchae a turbo you cannot take advantage of?
as far as the nitrous who knows if you have a ssecret panic button you can hold the entire pass if need be
Most of the time on turbo cars the nitrous will give the motor more than its rated power as it cools in the intake charge tremendously(with methanol not so much)

And what do their heads flow? I'll bet they're not running 1.835" intake valves with a port flow of 210 cfm. The heads are my limiting factor here. I don't care how much the turbo puts out.
The larger turbo does allow me to run smack dab in the highest efficiency island at my engine's total flow under power. That's it. That's the only advantage to me running this turbo. I'm getting a better efficiency number out of the compressor at max engine flow, instead of running the compressor out into a less efficient zone. I must have stumbled onto something pretty brilliant if that's all it takes to beat a seven second car starting from 2800 rpm.

 

[Alky V6]

Are you saying to make it a fair race we should have someone like Don Cruz bring his high 8 sec 70mm turbo car to race to make it fair against what you have?

If it meets the rules of any of the classes that everyone is wanting to compare mine too, then bring it on. Is there a faster class than TSO?

 

[Alky V6]

Are you saying to make it a fair race we should have someone like Don Cruz bring his high 8 sec 70mm turbo car to race to make it fair against what you have?

Why? You don't think he'd beat me? I, on the other hand, would think he has a very good chance of winning. How hard is it to spool a 70mm with a high stall TC starting from 2800 rpm? Can't be that hard. You guys really need to get out and do some testing. Maybe then you wouldn't think I had such an advantage here.

 

[Otto J]

If it meets the rules of any of the classes that everyone is wanting to compare mine too, then bring it on. Is there a faster class than TSO?

pretty much everyong here has said they respect you and your car and the way you are going about things,myself included. We just offer our advice as to what we know works.Hey it may just help.
I do enjoy reading about the things you are trying and engineering and by know means am i cutting on you for it.

 

[Alky V6]

pretty much everyong here has said they respect you and your car and the way you are going about things,myself included. We just offer our advice as to what we know works.Hey it may just help.
I do enjoy reading about the things you are trying and engineering and by know means am i cutting on you for it.

No worries, We're cool. This is just pre-race bench jousting. Maybe it'll get some of you worked up enough to actually take me up on this. :biggrin:

 

[Dusty Bradford]

Well then, what about this rule change. We have so many rules to work with here . What if we allow an off idle rpm start, but strictly, zero boost above what the engine would generate as if it were n/a? I think that would make the contest a little more fun. What do you think?
The cars would need to be fitted with datalogging capability so that map readings could be checked before the contest, and after.

My head is already swelling with tuning ideas you guys could use with this rule change. Hmmm. I think we should limit the rpm that both cars can start from by using the lowest obtainable rpm that either car can achieve at WOT, no nitrous and no boost. That would be about 2700-2900 for my car. For the higher stalled car, that would allow a pretty fair flash stall speed, so I don't see much of a disadvantage with that. What do you think?

Honestly. I think racing a car outside it's designed build is pointless. You take a car that is designed to leave on the 2 step and make it leave from an idle.....it only slows it down. The way everyone else sees it is that your creating rules to slow everyone else down to make it a fair race.:biggrin: We all know nitrous will make a turbo car leave more like a n2o car off idle. Thus the reason it's banned from classes. If nitrous was allowed on turbo cars 15 years ago you probably wouldn't see the converter technology you see now. It takes all the work out of getting the car to leave in a manner to compete against the nitrous cars.

Which brings the question. What are you looking to compare exactly? Rpm rise, map rise.

Basically what I get out of this is.............If someone wants to run 8's on a Champion iron head their best bet is to run a very large turbo and spray it out of the gate.

 

[Alky V6]

Honestly. I think racing a car outside it's designed build is pointless. You take a car that is designed to leave on the 2 step and make it leave from an idle.....it only slows it down. The way everyone else sees it is that your creating rules to slow everyone else down to make it a fair race.:biggrin: We all know nitrous will make a turbo car leave more like a n2o car off idle. Thus the reason it's banned from classes. If nitrous was allowed on turbo cars 15 years ago you probably wouldn't see the converter technology you see now. It takes all the work out of getting the car to leave in a manner to compete against the nitrous cars.

Which brings the question. What are you looking to compare exactly? Rpm rise, map rise.

Basically what I get out of this is.............If someone wants to run 8's on a Champion iron head their best bet is to run a very large turbo and spray it out of the gate.

Yeah, it's kinda like the original Pinks where I'm trying to even the playing field so that the finish is more interesting.

This is how I see it. Anyone is going to have more cubes on me, better breathing heads, a cam that is more suited for a good midrange, a high stall TC, and a smaller turbo that should spool relatively quickly from a 2800 rpm start. Every single item I named above is an advantage over my setup. All that put together should be enough to make sure you get out of the hole faster than I do. Am I wrong?
I will have less cubes, worse breathing heads, a camshaft that gives less torque through the midrange, a low stall TC, a monsterous turbo that has no business being on this engine, and what amounts to a 50-75 shot of nitrous.
Between the two, I only see the nitrous being on my side here. And, this isn't nitrous with gasoline. This is nitrous with methanol, which is vastly inferior to running nitrous with gasoline.
Even with the help of the nitrous, I'd be willing to bet you could get on the turbo much quicker than I could.